[00:57:28] talios, darrelmiller - definitely get involved in that discussion on the group [00:57:43] it's a pretty fundamental design to HAL so it's worth going through in detail [01:18:38] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [01:18:50] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [01:43:00] DracoBlue1 (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [01:44:15] DracoBlue1 (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left irc: Client Quit [01:48:48] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [02:37:03] talios (~textual@ip-118-90-67-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) joined #rest. [02:43:04] talios (~textual@ip-118-90-67-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) left irc: Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/ [02:43:20] talios (~textual@ip-118-90-67-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) joined #rest. [02:55:58] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [03:01:44] Wombert (~Wombert@62.205.97.157) joined #rest. [03:09:48] mr_yall (~mr_yall@scifo.mexico86.co.uk) joined #rest. [03:35:15] talios: dunno if you caught the above two lines I think you may have been disconnected [03:35:27] oh? [03:35:52] doesn't really matter I just said if you should definitely contribute as it's fundamental part of HAL's design [03:36:48] contribute what? [03:36:53] When I first responded to the guy I actually pen'd something about how I might make it a constraint that the self relation can only be a single relation on its own [03:37:05] talios: sorry contribute to the thread [03:37:16] oh right. [03:38:07] anyone on your team should get involved too [03:38:21] I'm interested to hear the arguments for doing it [03:38:22] Well, you -could- get around that "self relation" restriction, by having an additonal [03:38:35] sure [03:38:46] tbh I think you're better off doing [03:38:57] but then - you may as well just collapse that to rel="self http://minted" which is effectively the same thing [03:38:59] [03:39:19] but I would seirously consider whether that is a Good Idea(tm) or not [03:40:21] I'm not 100% in agreement with my coworkers ideas on how we shoud use HAL as it is tho :) [03:40:25] talios: what's the thinking behind needing to do that ? [03:41:17] Mostly, that a resoure shoudl be self-describing - "Roy Says So" :) [03:41:21] i.e. what kind of situation would a resource need to assert its own significance [03:41:23] ah. [03:41:40] I think that's a perversion of the term self-descriptive [03:41:51] Main 'valid' usecase - sending HAL representations via a message bus. [03:42:04] o.O [03:42:12] that sounds fun! :D [03:42:21] Also, I had the thought earlier - if minting a rel on a top level resource is bad, why have the href either then. [03:42:29] is that something you are trying to do now or thinking about in the future ? [03:42:31] you followed a link target - THATS THE HREF :P [03:43:17] we want a message bus in the future, but its been part of my thinking of why you'd want a self-describing rep. you -might- even use SMTP as a transport rather than HTTP. [03:43:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s). [03:43:22] talios: for protocols that don't have a Content-Location header [03:43:23] doh [03:44:11] If you are using SMTP [03:44:14] mk_: ahh but Content-Location is a header on a resource, you followed a link. Content-Location is part of the resource. things shoud be rel driven. [03:44:27] so the argument is. [03:44:38] I meant the 'why is there an href on the root resource' thing [03:44:58] + debugging and shit like that [03:45:00] true. but if everything is rel driven from a link - you shouldn't NEED it. [03:45:25] yeah right, it is a bit redundant [03:45:42] easier to calc relative URIs from a parser [03:45:43] debugging was also my other reason for minting the - its -added- documentation for -me-. for debugging, for whatever. [03:46:16] yeah I think that is a step too far for me [03:46:23] you're on the server side [03:46:33] you know how your URIs map to your resources [03:47:15] the trouble with the self+type rel is that it exposes something to the client that encourages them to behave in a Bad Way (tm) [03:48:25] if the only way for them to establish semantics is via previous rels.. they are *forced* into a discovery/traversal approach [03:48:48] as soon as you start exposing typed'ness you've leaked out information which means they are no-longer constrained [03:50:52] A thought I did have earlier as well, if you followed a link for rel="x", one reason to have additional links would be to say "yes I am x, but I also contain y". Which may as I said above, be other explicit elements pointing to the same URI [03:51:57] the href on a resource -is- a link in itself from what I can tell . [03:52:46] (it certainly is when you view the current JSON representation). [03:53:37] yeah it's a link [03:53:50] btw used to be just a non-self-closing link element [03:54:06] .. embedded content... [03:54:16] and then I changed it to resource so it was clearer [03:54:42] right. [03:55:11] 2 secs brb [03:57:55] Ok, so letting my brain drift ( its 1am ). thats two 's to the same URI, one somewhere else, and one embedded on the actual resource. [03:59:05] https://gist.github.com/4b7d3922bf66d0d55547 <- I guess the is ONLY relevant on the XML representation, where the rel="self" is an attribute. [03:59:22] Fullmoon (~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at) joined #rest. [03:59:24] unlike JSON where it's an explicit "_links": entry [04:02:22] Wombert (~Wombert@62.205.97.157) left irc: Quit: Wombert [04:11:37] mk_ - thats a long 2secs :) [04:11:44] yeah sorry I'm back now [04:11:52] heh [04:12:28] there's not really any difference between _links: { self: { ... and it's just because JSON isn't as expressive as XML so I had to find an elegant way to deal with it [04:13:31] yeh. I kinda preferred the earlier _href attribute actually [04:14:52] it does serve to hightlight clearly that it is a link tho. which is why I don't particular see an issue with having multiple links pointing to same href that self does. [04:15:16] honestly I can't remember why that was done away with, I think I was just trying to reduce the 'surface' area of HAL so it didn't "impose" as much on the JSON [04:15:22] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [04:15:31] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [04:15:36] What is HAL? [04:15:40] much of a muchness [04:16:07] Fullmoon: http://blog.stateless.co/post/13296666138/json-linking-with-hal [04:16:26] the spec is here: http://stateless.co/hal_specification.html [04:16:53] mk_ - that version is quite out of date from github now :( [04:17:12] talios: I think you might be hitting a cached version [04:18:13] mm did you update it recently? as Isaac noticed that at work yesterday as well [04:18:34] pretty sure I pushed it to the server when I pushed the update to github [04:18:59] tbh the latest revision is not complete, I just needed to make a start on it [04:19:19] e.g. there's a Transclusion section that's completely empty [04:20:15] One thing around this whole rel discussion, in your examples you have "customer", if the recommendation is to use a URI for minted rels, should the examples highlight that? [04:22:03] interestingly tho - if they are URIs, how would _links.upsell[0].href work - if the upsell was a URI. _links["http://upsell"][0].href I guess? [04:26:51] Wombert (~Wombert@62.205.105.58) joined #rest. [04:31:30] yeah [04:31:47] I don't do that in the examples cos it's less pretty :) [04:32:59] but you are right - the examples don't follow that recommendation [04:33:02] Action: mk_ shrugs [04:33:06] heh - maybe at least ONE example then under the recommendations section of using URIs. [04:33:19] yeah I think that's probably the best bet [04:33:24] Action: talios mutters something about spec writers ;p [04:33:32] haha [04:33:44] are you an "enterprise architect" by day? :) [04:33:58] no I'm a rails developer :< [04:34:25] I work for cloud computing and e-commerce companies mostly, building stuff [04:35:14] I first got into REST 3 and a bit years ago cos I had to build a big integration platform [04:35:16] rails - thats like worse than enterprise ( coming from "the java guy" ) :) [04:35:34] oh man. I love rails :) [04:36:09] to be fair, I've only been commited to working with it since the big rails 3 re-write [04:36:21] which changed a tonne of stuff I really didn't like before [04:36:32] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [04:37:50] about the same here then - i'd already started looking at REST 3.5ish years back, then started at $work and doing everything "resty" - tho that was mostly HTTP+JSON more than anythig "blessed by Roy" :) [04:38:55] Making the transition to start using Link: headers was a big game changer for us, tho it's still only used in a few parts of our system. Now we're gong thru a much larger rework [04:39:35] Link headers are cool but I think they get used for stuff where it could just go in the body [04:40:11] super glad they got re-instated on the web though [04:40:16] hooray for mnot! [04:40:34] true. one thing I like about them is the uniformity of processing regardless of Content-Type, i.e. same place to find links if you're looking at a text/plain application/pdf or text/csv representation [04:40:47] right, that's exactly where they shine [04:41:08] and also for other funky stuff like this link invalidation thing I worked on [04:41:15] That reminds me - I've meaning to write my linking blog. [04:41:54] but that's the key - I really use them as a fallback for adding linking capabilities to legacy media types [04:43:27] Action: talios looks at the clock -shiz! 1:42am. I should really sleep - planning a 3 hour drive to a music festival tomorrow ( then the drive back in the evening ). [04:44:20] eek! [04:44:30] good talking to you [04:44:38] have a good one :() [04:44:42] indeed - you to :) [04:47:59] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [04:48:06] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [04:49:46] Wombert (~Wombert@62.205.105.58) left irc: Quit: bai [04:51:51] talios (~textual@ip-118-90-67-172.xdsl.xnet.co.nz) left irc: Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/ [05:01:47] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [05:12:00] darrelmiller: I think it's possible to make a decent case as to why that is not a good idea [05:29:26] Besides Web Services With Rest, and the Rest Cookbook, any other good books that you could recommend? [05:36:11] no. [05:36:25] definitely not that dodgey one about Hypermedia with node and HTML [05:36:46] whoever wrote that didn't really put much thought into it [05:37:39] mk_: this http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920020530.do ? [05:37:46] http://www.amazon.com/Building-Hypermedia-APIs-HTML5-Node/dp/1449306578 [05:38:04] yeah that one [05:38:11] load of bollocks, right?! [05:38:14] :D [05:38:17] ok, then you should maybe discuss a little with mamund .. [05:38:25] I haven't read it [05:38:38] I know it's mike's I'm kidding [05:38:43] oh [05:38:47] :) [05:38:49] Fullmoon: I'm kidding btw that book is excellent [05:38:54] :D [05:39:00] probably the most important book on 'REST' you can get [05:39:03] got me there :) [05:39:23] the other stuff you get about 'REST' is really all just stuff you could get from reading the HTTP spec :| [05:39:24] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [05:43:04] REST cookbook is a pretty good reference though, to be fiar [05:43:24] oh REST in Practice is pretty good too, actually [05:43:40] that's written by the guys who came up with REST Bucks [05:44:16] mamund: I was trying to come up with a reference application we can work on (ala maze) but with write as well as read [05:45:38] I thought about something like a forum/discussion application [05:45:45] but that might be a bit boring [05:46:03] then I thought about maybe something like Battleships [05:46:55] mk_: Cool, I'll have a look [05:47:25] Fullmoon: mamund wrote hypermedia APIs with HTML5 and node.js [05:47:50] he's a self-professed spiritual Guru in the REST world [05:47:51] Like node.js node? [05:47:52] Ah [05:48:07] yeah the node bit is just the server side tech he picked for the examples [05:48:08] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [05:48:16] Uh very cheap for kindle.. [05:48:24] even if you aren't interested in node there's a tonne of great stuff anyway [05:48:31] on the hypermedia side [06:19:21] bigbluehat1 (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest. [06:20:43] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@66.6.175.18) joined #rest. [06:24:22] Nick change: sbanwart_ -> sbanwart [07:06:53] mk_: yeah, tagging on the node and Html5 was a brilliant way of getting past the O'Reilly marketters to get a book out on Hypermedia design :-) [07:07:13] mamund: is an evil genius [07:07:35] I should write a book on designing restful clients using coffeescript and CSS3. [07:07:55] ... :D [07:20:52] :) [07:20:54] do it! [07:22:24] what does everyone think about a reference hypertext application for battleships [07:22:46] do it! [07:22:53] Action: bigbluehat1 is in a very positive, encouraging mood [07:22:56] lol [07:23:08] should I shoot myself in the face ? [07:23:14] well... [07:23:18] we all draw the line somewhere :) [07:23:19] ... [07:23:20] so... [07:23:21] no [07:23:27] pwned. [07:23:29] ¬_¬ [07:23:32] :( [07:23:44] Action: bigbluehat1 will be more careful [07:23:50] I miss him already.... [07:26:41] ….mk_...? [07:27:14] X_X [07:27:19] he's gone to rest-discuss purgatory for sure... [07:27:23] this time unwillingly [07:27:23] haha [07:27:25] poor chap [07:27:30] :) [07:27:49] can anyone tell I'm trying to debug in IE8 right now? [07:27:58] ohh damn [07:28:05] don't support that shit man!!! [07:28:11] heh :) [07:28:18] I'm doing everything I can *not* to have to [07:28:20] fight powa!!!! [07:28:23] :) [07:28:26] fight the powa* [07:28:39] we are the 99% [07:28:48] heck yeah! ;) [07:28:48] end the fed! [07:29:10] I want to by a galopi and put a "IR1PRCNT" on it [07:29:21] hahahaha [07:29:27] oh…super…the bug's just magically gone! [07:29:28] amazing [07:29:40] I'm taking some credit for that [07:30:13] I did that with my mind [07:30:14] oh…I fixed it X-P [07:30:20] heh [07:30:28] you both get the credit [07:30:32] I just did the typing…I guess [07:31:19] Action: bigbluehat1 refills his coffee [07:45:28] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) joined #rest. [08:34:30] whartung (~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [08:38:38] whartung (~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #rest. [08:38:57] bigbluehat1 (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [08:46:33] o/ [09:05:13] \0 [09:06:11] \o/ (break it up) [09:06:34] waaaaahhh [09:12:13] hdave (~hdave@static-71-245-233-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) joined #rest. [09:16:28] KevBurnsJr (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) joined #rest. [09:17:59] am I missing something [09:18:07] why is it a crime to use URI templates in links ? [09:19:17] Everything you do is a crime mk_, it's just your character. [09:19:37] I know right [09:19:45] check this out [09:20:07] https://twitter.com/#!/serialseb/status/162179818434207745 [09:20:13] that was yesterday, I think. [09:20:20] .. go figure. [09:23:02] mk_: Just think, soon you and serialseb will be living just a short drive from each other. You could go have a beer and clear this stuff up ;-) [09:23:43] yeah for sure [09:24:50] I've met him already, he was at restunconf [09:25:11] he really doesn't get hypertext [09:25:15] I tried to explain it to him [09:25:20] I know. I keep tabs on everyone. [09:25:34] I think we discussed it for about an hour and a half [09:25:46] alas, I failed [09:27:33] I judts haven't had time to follow rest-discuss [09:28:10] Plant the seed, then wear them down over time. Eventually they will have a brilliant idea that will sound familiar. [09:28:48] the best jokes are the ones you make other people tell [09:29:21] "restunconf" is that different from "unrestconf"? [09:29:59] The people that don't get hypertext simply have their heads buried in their own little implementations. [09:30:11] That was the "us Europeans are jealous of RESTfest" conference. [09:30:20] oh [09:44:22] axisys_ (~axisys@ip68-98-189-233.dc.dc.cox.net) left #rest. [09:45:18] well I'm still none the wiser what his issue is [09:46:50] hobodave (~hobodave@pdpc/supporter/professional/hobodave) joined #rest. [10:01:57] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [10:02:35] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) joined #rest. [10:11:15] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [10:11:46] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) joined #rest. [10:27:54] hdave (~hdave@static-71-245-233-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) got netsplit. [10:28:02] Fullmoon (~Fullmoon@dsl-stat-43-17.mmc.at) got netsplit. 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[15:18:25] oooh there is a new URI Template spec available http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-08 [15:22:44] mk_: "Within client-side implementations, a URI template has many of the same properties as HTML forms" [15:37:19] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 276 seconds [15:41:36] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [15:43:12] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [15:48:10] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [15:53:17] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [15:56:21] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [15:59:17] wow 08 [15:59:50] yeah, I completely missed the 07 in sept. [16:00:18] I still wish there was a "uri templates for rest" that didn't have all the complicated crap to support *every* possible permutation of URI [16:00:40] all I need is {/foo}, {?bar}, and maybe {;baz} [16:00:46] They have levels. Level 1 is pretty simple. [16:01:08] It's level 2,3 and 4 that get a bit more funky :-) [16:02:31] gracias, wasn't aware they had clumped them into levels [16:02:39] it's a little bit more sane now :) [16:03:55] I haven't quite figured out how level 1 supports query params though. [16:04:16] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@72.135.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [16:04:17] foo?bar={value} [16:04:27] yeah that's what I was thinking. [16:04:42] for a very expansive definition of "supports" :) [16:05:36] but that format is not nearly as nice as the foo{?bar} syntax which I think is only introduced in level 3 [16:06:12] I still don't see why they have level 2 at all. You should be able to infer reserved expansion if you're using "/" for example [16:07:03] dunno. [16:07:15] meh [16:07:26] I wrote my own into Shoji 'cause I couldn't wait ;) [16:08:11] is there a mailing list for this working group? [16:09:35] I think they're piggypacking on the uri list [16:10:20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/ [16:10:35] thank you, my google foo was failing me. [16:11:23] I only recall cause I posted on there after writing my PHP uri tempale -04 parser [16:11:48] whiiiich I should prooobably update [16:11:59] http://lab.kevburnsjr.com/php-uri-template-parser [16:13:37] I suppose I should think about writing a C# one at some point. [16:14:19] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [16:14:41] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [16:40:58] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@226.86.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [16:43:43] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds [16:47:03] steveklabnik (~steve@c-67-165-87-244.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #rest. [16:47:18] mamund: congrats on your book man. I just finished it. Great job. [16:50:16] steveklabnik: mamund is mia, haven't seen him here all day. Must be having fun in SF. [16:53:21] :) [16:53:33] it's hard not to! [16:53:37] how have things been around here? [16:53:53] Just the usual bitching and griping... [16:53:59] heh [16:54:49] i'm giving the first of my hypermedia talks at ruby conferences next week. [16:54:53] Although there is excitement about the URI template spec getting approved. [16:54:56] still putting it together. [16:55:01] Cool. [16:55:05] oh yeah? did it, or is it close? [16:55:10] Action: steveklabnik hasnt heard [16:55:26] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gregorio-uritemplate/history/ [16:56:27] wooo [16:56:43] steveklabnik: Are you familiar with restfulie ? [16:56:44] six years [16:56:46] not bad [16:56:59] yes, i have a patch in for some documentation on the ruby one [16:57:16] why do you ask? [16:57:19] ok. I was just wondering. I haven't heard much about it recently. [16:57:25] KevBurnsJr (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) left irc: Quit: tgimff [16:57:28] sbanwart_ (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [16:58:23] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@226.86.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [17:02:38] yeah, i havent either. [17:02:43] i dont use it for anything [17:24:37] bigbluehat (u632@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wkusvqusacvtgvgo) left irc: Quit: Connection closed for inactivity [17:31:40] Nick change: sbanwart_ -> sbanwart [17:37:06] steveklabnik (~steve@c-67-165-87-244.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds [17:46:55] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [17:54:13] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [18:01:08] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Quit: Konversation terminated! [18:04:21] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [18:36:53] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [18:42:24] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. [18:55:49] rpaddock (~rpaddock@rrcs-76-79-208-202.west.biz.rr.com) joined #rest. [18:57:18] If a entity has an additional requirement that must be met in order for a PUT to process correctly, should that throw a 400 or a 409 on failure? [19:05:14] depends on the requirement, and whether the user can resolve it, but often 409 [20:04:23] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds [20:37:58] quest88 (~quest88@c-98-207-205-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #rest. [23:29:16] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) joined #rest. [23:29:28] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) left irc: Client Quit [00:00:00] --- Sat Jan 28 2012