#rest on irc.freenode.net 2012-01-24 (txt)

[00:04] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest.
[00:11] breerly (~Adium@50.0.103.39) left #rest.
[00:19] trygvis_ (trygvela@knuth.ping.uio.no) joined #rest.
[00:19] whartung (~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net) got netsplit.
[00:19] trygvis (trygvela@knuth.ping.uio.no) got netsplit.
[00:19] inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org) got netsplit.
[00:19] HighBit (~eqhmcow@adsl-98-69-182-207.rmo.bellsouth.net) got netsplit.
[00:21] HighBit (~eqhmcow@adsl-98-69-182-207.rmo.bellsouth.net) returned to #rest.
[00:22] inimino (~inimino@boshi.inimino.org) returned to #rest.
[00:30] trygvis (trygvela@knuth.ping.uio.no) got lost in the net-split.
[00:30] whartung (~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net) got lost in the net-split.
[00:59] trygvis_ -> trygvis
[01:35] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[01:48] <trygvis> akashra: I find jersey to be quite all right, what's your gripe with it?
[01:48] <trygvis> I've done lots of stuff in scala and unfiltered lately, that's even better
[02:08] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-190-077.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest.
[02:12] KevBurnsJr_ (~KevBurnsJ@c-67-164-98-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds
[02:18] KevBurnsJr (~KevBurnsJ@c-67-164-98-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #rest.
[02:26] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest.
[02:28] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest.
[02:48] mr_yall (~mryall@host86-171-192-152.range86-171.btcentralplus.com) joined #rest.
[02:56] <mk_> mamund: what's with all you microsoft guys drinking the node.js kool-aid ?
[02:57] <mk_> javascript is a totally retarded language, node is a hacked together runtime
[02:58] <mk_> writing non-blocking code is a ball-ache
[02:59] <mk_> and the web is pretty much designed to let us optimise 'inefficient'/blocking backends with stuff like caching anyway
[03:00] <mk_> I get the "everything is going to be javascript in the future maaan" argument
[03:00] <mk_> is that the main argument ?
[03:32] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest.
[04:06] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest.
[04:06] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest.
[04:25] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@130.82-134-26.bkkb.no) joined #rest.
[04:41] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Quit: mhausenblas
[04:44] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest.
[05:04] mr_yall (~mryall@host86-171-192-152.range86-171.btcentralplus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[05:16] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-190-077.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[05:22] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-194-052.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest.
[05:24] <darrelmiller> mk_: Microsoft are seeking legitimacy on the web ;-)
[05:24] <mk_> :|
[05:24] <mk_> good luck with that.
[05:24] <darrelmiller> mk_: I'm assuming you saw mnot's announcement last night?
[05:25] <mk_> yeah
[05:25] <mk_> will watch that closely, like to be involved in it
[05:25] <mk_> hopefully I can fix Roy's fuck up re: partial PUT
[05:25] <mk_> what an idiot, right?!!?!!
[05:25] <darrelmiller> hahaha! That;s what I was thinking...
[05:26] <darrelmiller> I'm thinking of starting to push for a safe request with a body
[05:26] <mk_> I'm sure I saw a proposal for that recently
[05:26] <darrelmiller> Not sure whether I should go with GET with body or SAFEPOST :-)
[05:27] <mk_> I think subbu posted it to twitte
[05:27] <darrelmiller> Httpbis has relaxed the wording around GETs with bodies.
[05:27] <mk_> oh maybe that was it
[05:27] <darrelmiller> Not exactly endorsing it, but not condoning it either.
[05:28] <mk_> yeah I think people are au-fait with HTTP enough to not do to omuch Stupid Shit with it
[05:28] <darrelmiller> It seems that debate is happening now on the ietf-http-wg group list. "We want big change" "No, we want little change"....
[05:29] <mk_> I really think the HTTP guys need to grab the browser vendors by the nuts
[05:29] <mk_> and force them to do it properly this time
[05:29] <darrelmiller> Really. Time to reign in those egos.
[05:30] <mk_> I'd like to work with Mark on upgrading all the caching stuff in http
[05:52] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-194-052.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[05:54] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-190-155.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest.
[06:12] bigbluehat1 (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest.
[06:45] mr_yall`` (~mr_yall@scifo.mexico86.co.uk) joined #rest.
[06:46] mr_yall`` (~mr_yall@scifo.mexico86.co.uk) left #rest ("Killed buffer").
[06:48] kke (~kimmo@46.19.32.53) joined #rest.
[06:51] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) joined #rest.
[07:05] bigbluehat1 (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[07:11] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Quit: mhausenblas
[07:32] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest.
[07:32] <fu-manchu> I had to laugh out loud at the proposed one-year-to-HTTP/2.0 schedule
[08:10] fu-manchu sticks his nose into the 2.0 fray
[08:13] phidah (~phidah@x1-6-e0-46-9a-98-00-b2.k1053.webspeed.dk) joined #rest.
[08:19] mephju (~mephju@dslb-188-103-190-155.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Quit: Ex-Chat
[08:22] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Quit: mhausenblas
[08:33] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest.
[08:34] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest.
[08:43] mamund sez 'yo' from SF
[08:44] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest.
[08:45] <mk_> hoooly shit range-14 is going to get dragged up AGAIN
[08:45] <mk_> awesome.
[08:46] <mk_> what a complete and utter waste of fucking time.
[08:46] <mk_> oh hey mamund
[08:50] <mamund> hey
[08:50] <mk_> http://www.mkbergman.com/994/give-me-a-sign-what-do-things-mean-on-the-semantic-web/
[08:51] <mk_> I really wish I was good enough at writing and had enough time
[08:52] <mk_> so I could write a book explaining why that semweb stuff misses the point so epically
[08:52] <mamund> wow, page is slow to load.
[08:52] <mk_> heh, probably getting raped
[08:53] <mamund> tl;dnr
[08:54] <mamund> looks like a re-hash here; nothing new i can see, can you?
[08:54] <mk_> well he actually wades into the philosophy of it all
[08:54] <mk_> which is fine
[08:54] <mamund> yeah, but that doesn't seem to bring anything new.
[08:54] <mamund> guess i'll have to actually _read_ the whole thing<g>
[08:55] <mk_> just pick a good philosopher that doesn't talk potificated bollocks all the time
[08:55] <mk_> pontificated
[08:55] <mamund> in a nutshell, SemWeb fails since it's a 'top-down' approach instead of bottom-up
[08:55] <mk_> SemWeb fails because it takes it's conventions too seriously.
[08:55] <mamund> LOL
[08:56] <mamund> real life is messy, multi-layered, variant over time.
[08:56] <mk_> any language is a convention for getting-shit-done
[08:56] <mamund> :)
[08:56] <mk_> for mapping a territory..
[08:56] <mk_> it's not a territory..
[08:56] <mk_> so don't treat it like a territory
[08:57] <mk_> and don't keep pissing in the wind trying to make it behave like a territory
[08:57] <mk_> just use your map for something and stfu
[08:57] <mamund> yep was just thinking the same.
[08:57] <mamund> map-think is missing
[08:58] <mk_> timbl is a bloody physicist.
[08:58] <mamund> i think HTTP's representation model does a good job of supporting this map-thhink.
[08:58] <mk_> there is no hope.
[08:58] <mamund> well, it's more than timbl.
[08:59] <mk_> yeah
[08:59] <mk_> he's still semweb jesus though right ?
[08:59] <mamund> for many, yes
[08:59] <mk_> it's ridiculous there is no mention of fielding in that post.
[09:00] <mamund> since Fielding's httpRange-14 solution turned out to be "no solution" as far as the author is concerned.
[09:04] <mk_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002Jul/0090.html
[09:04] <mk_> 'nuff said.
[09:06] <mamund> yep, it's a classic
[09:06] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest.
[09:06] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest.
[09:07] <mamund> i like the line "...the only reason this gives anyone in RDF land heartburn..."
[09:09] <mk_> :)
[09:09] <mk_> mamund: wtf have you guys been smoking over there?!
[09:09] <mk_> https://twitter.com/#!/sallamar/status/161855955125018625
[09:10] <mk_> is that a reference to ql.io ?
[09:11] <mamund> ???
[09:11] <mk_> aren't you at nodesummit with subbu atm ?
[09:12] <mamund> yeah, same place. not near subbu right now.
[09:12] <mamund> i think he's channeling the keynote here.
[09:12] <mk_> ah
[09:12] <mk_> you're not keynoting ?
[09:12] <mamund> lots of flowery talk about the future of the web as "everything is a node"
[09:12] <mamund> LOL
[09:12] <mk_> :D
[09:12] <mk_> lol
[09:13] <mk_> everything written in a shitty language as non-blocking code
[09:13] <mk_> SIGN ME UP TO THE FUTURE
[09:13] <mamund> :D
[09:13] <mk_> I actually really like node but I wouldnt use it to build a backend
[09:13] <mamund> so, the warm and fuzzy here is that "we can write using a single lang" and "we can abstract away OS, hardware (w/ PaaS)", etc.
[09:14] <mamund> it's nice that people are thinking that each _device_ is a commodity and that the _network_ is front and center.
[09:14] <mk_> well if the web taught us anything it's that this is not a requirement for a large scale system
[09:14] <mamund> but, IMO, this is not the group that will be at the forefront of "programming the network"
[09:15] <mamund> zackly
[09:15] <mamund> that's why i am pretty cynical about what's happening here this week
[09:15] <mamund> i _like_ node and the surrounding bits
[09:15] <mamund> mostly cuz it's reducing friction for daily work
[09:16] <mamund> but i don't see anything here that improves the web itself.
[09:16] <mk_> yeah but like..
[09:16] <mk_> I can have 10000000000000000 connections ALL AT THE SAME TIME
[09:17] <fu-manchu> and an arbitrary subset of those will wait 10000000000000000000 seconds to complete! progress!
[09:17] <mamund> all at the same time, at any time, in any comdo
[09:17] <mamund> fu-manchu: LOL
[09:19] <mk_> mamund: I wrote an ESI thing in node
[09:19] <mk_> it's Connect middleware
[09:19] <mamund> ah. make sense
[09:20] <mk_> except it's not ESI it's ESI-like thing for hal+json
[09:20] <mamund> and i have been using node as a connector/component bridge
[09:20] <mk_> ¬_¬
[09:20] <mamund> :)
[09:22] <mk_> horrible to do in Connect/node though
[09:22] <mk_> cos connect is designed to always stream the response body out
[09:22] <mamund> yeah?
[09:22] <mamund> why is this a bummer for you
[09:23] <mk_> well ESI needs to suck up all the response and then do the transclusions
[09:23] <mamund> ahh, right
[09:23] <mk_> so the only way to do it is to monkey patch the response object and make it buffer in memory
[09:24] <mk_> pretty hairy but it does actually work
[09:25] <mamund> hmmmm
[09:26] <mamund> so you spool the response into a buffer then hook an event for the end of the stream?
[09:26] Jarda (~jarda@narhinen.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[09:27] <phidah> What public REST APIs do you consider to be best practise? I'd like some inspiration as to how it is documented and structured...
[09:27] mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest.
[09:29] <mk_> mamund: pretty much, yeah
[09:29] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
[09:29] mhausenblas_ -> mhausenblas
[09:29] <mamund> phidah: if you're referring to Fielding's REST model (his 2001 dissertation), there are very few publicly implemented.
[09:29] <mk_> I should put it up on github I'm just not sure what state it is in :S
[09:30] <mamund> Fielding's REST is a _style_ and therefore few other people mimic that style "just like Fielding"
[09:30] <Hakon|mbp> if someone walked into the room with the same style of rest api as me, i would leave!
[09:31] <mamund> however, i think several folks here have experience using Fielding's REST style as a guide for building apps and other tools.
[09:31] <fu-manchu> :)
[09:31] <mamund> Hakon|mbp: :)
[09:31] whartung (~whartung@wsip-98-189-78-118.oc.oc.cox.net) joined #rest.
[09:31] Jarda (~jarda@narhinen.net) joined #rest.
[09:31] <whartung> o/
[09:31] <mamund> phidah: so, while this might not be what you are looking for, i'd suggest asking a diff Q...
[09:32] <fu-manchu> \o
[09:32] <mamund> as in "what are examples of the various elements of Fielding's REST that people use today for their apps?"
[09:32] <phidah> Okay, I'll rephrase. An API like, say, Flickr's - would that be a good aiming point or not? http://www.flickr.com/services/api/
[09:32] <whartung> Yea, mamund only likes questions he can answer -- the others flummox him.
[09:33] <mamund> !
[09:34] <mamund> phidah: i don't care for the flickr API because it is based on publishing a large set of URI templates.
[09:34] <mk_> i.e. it's "shite"
[09:35] <mamund> when i've used their API (some internal stuff), i actually designed a "flickr media type" that clients & servers use instead.
[09:35] <mamund> i posted some example apps that are based on hypermedia types rather than URIs, object-serialization, etc.
[09:36] <whartung> mamund's mission statement: "Reinventing the wheel, everyday!" ;)
[09:36] <mk_> lol.
[09:36] <mk_> you probably don't need to create a media type
[09:36] <mamund> hey, it's an "endless" process!
[09:36] <mk_> but look
[09:37] <mk_> if it makes you feel good, then do it
[09:37] <mamund> mk_ the internal flickr design used XHTML
[09:37] <mk_> cool
[09:37] <phidah> Can you give me an example?
[09:38] <mamund> http://amundsen.com/examples/misc/maze/maze-client.html
[09:38] <mk_> bwaha
[09:38] <mk_> :D
[09:38] <mamund> that's a page that implements an M2M client
[09:39] <mk_> 404
[09:39] <mk_> freudian slip ?
[09:40] <mamund> ??
[09:40] <mk_> that page 404's for me
[09:40] <mamund> huh
[09:40] <mamund> doh!
[09:40] <mamund> http://amundsen.com/examples/misc/maze-client.html
[09:41] <mamund> (can't paste in this stoopid window)
[09:41] <whartung> REST sucks -- SOAP would never send a bad url.
[09:41] <whartung> I blame Roy.
[09:41] <mamund> the client uses this media type design:
[09:41] <mamund> http://amundsen.com/media-types/maze/
[09:41] <mamund> i think there is also the same domain implemented in HAL, right?
[09:43] <mamund> anyway, this is just an example of a way to implement an app w/o depending on publising a static set of URI templates
[09:44] <mamund> this same thing can be done w/ _any_ media type format that contain support for links.
[09:50] <mamund> phidah: so the only meaning diff between the implementation approach i used there and the one used byy flickr is the use of...
[09:50] <mamund> the message as the container (media type) for the API instead of the URI.
[09:51] <mamund> this is mentioned in the dissertation, but not at all widely used in public APIs.
[09:52] <mamund> ok, gonna need to take a break. will be back later today.
[09:52] mamund closes his laptop and heads for the snack table
[10:01] <Jarda> hmm I would have an idea for a talk
[10:01] <Jarda> now I would need a place to keep it on
[10:02] <Jarda> "Want to write an API for your web app - you most likely already have"
[10:02] <Jarda> +one
[10:05] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@130.82-134-26.bkkb.no) left irc: Quit: Leaving...
[10:26] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest.
[10:30] DracoBlue (~Adium@dslb-088-075-211-024.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest.
[10:30] DracoBlue (~Adium@dslb-088-075-211-024.pools.arcor-ip.net) left #rest.
[10:31] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Quit: brb
[10:49] KevBurnsJr_ (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) joined #rest.
[10:56] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[11:05] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest.
[11:24] KevBurnsJr_ (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[11:24] KevBurnsJr_ (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) joined #rest.
[11:42] phidah (~phidah@x1-6-e0-46-9a-98-00-b2.k1053.webspeed.dk) left irc: Quit: phidah
[12:28] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[12:28] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) joined #rest.
[12:51] lmarburger (u1979@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmmnatsqpzsxqzsq) joined #rest.
[13:23] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest.
[13:34] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[13:34] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest.
[13:45] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[13:45] NOKAH (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest.
[14:00] NOKAH (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
[14:20] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:8d26:b754:b7a4:cd77) joined #rest.
[14:24] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-132-42.gsp.bellsouth.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 244 seconds
[14:35] hdave (~hdave@static-71-245-233-130.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) left #rest.
[14:41] lmarburger (u1979@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmmnatsqpzsxqzsq) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[14:42] mamund peeks in for a bit
[14:42] <akashra> is this like whack-a-mole?
[14:42] <mamund> :)
[14:50] lmarburger (u1979@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mvowuidnoofuaqte) joined #rest.
[14:51] <darrelmiller> whack.
[16:08] bigbluehat (u632@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wkusvqusacvtgvgo) joined #rest.
[16:09] pezra (~Adium@webmail.openlogic.com) left irc: Quit: Leaving.
[16:14] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:8d26:b754:b7a4:cd77) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[16:39] mamund popped in again.
[16:53] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:895b:dca3:be68:5725) joined #rest.
[17:07] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-092-075-024-131.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Quit: Wombert
[17:21] NOKAH (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest.
[17:25] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:895b:dca3:be68:5725) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds
[17:30] NOKAH (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[17:30] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest.
[17:30] NOKAH (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:6d39:9016:2a69:d3c) joined #rest.
[18:02] scudco (~scudco@cpe-75-85-13-152.socal.res.rr.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[18:27] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[18:58] fu-manchu (~fumanchu@adsl-99-30-180-185.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 272 seconds
[18:59] quest88 (~quest88@c-98-207-205-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #rest.
[19:09] fu-manchu (~fumanchu@75-57-4-116.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest.
[19:10] quest88 (~quest88@c-98-207-205-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Quit: quest88
[19:12] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-092-075-024-131.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest.
[19:29] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-092-075-024-131.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Quit: Wombert
[19:53] sgronblo (~sgronblom@61.121.210.2) left irc: Quit: leaving
[20:00] axisys (~axisys@ip68-98-189-233.dc.dc.cox.net) joined #rest.
[21:16] fu-manchu (~fumanchu@75-57-4-116.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[21:41] akashra (~akashra@830wd-74912-w.infodiv.unimelb.edu.au) left #rest.
[22:16] NOKAH (~hakon1@2001:470:28:6e1:6d39:9016:2a69:d3c) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds
[22:28] fu-manchu (~fumanchu@adsl-99-30-180-185.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest.
[00:00] --- Wed Jan 25 2012