#rest on irc.freenode.net 2012-01-16 (txt)

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[04:31] <mk_> :@@@
[04:31] <mk_> why are people so fucking afraid of creating resources ?
[04:34] <mk_> rails does seem to mentally restrain people from stepping outside of collection/item
[04:35] <mk_> which is kind of weird because it probably has the most capable router I've seen from any web stack
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[05:55] <mk_> mamund: why did you have to bring JJ back to my attention
[05:55] <mk_> shame on you.
[05:55] <mk_> :D
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[06:28] mamund slips in
[06:28] <mamund> mk_: LOL! it's just too easy
[06:29] <mk_> it really amazes me how little sense he makes
[06:29] <mk_> "I hate you, I don't care what you think, please listen to me"
[06:29] <mamund> heee
[06:30] <mk_> he is exactly why I fricking hate coorporate style IT
[06:30] <mk_> some jumped up douche bag who can't explain himself without constantly hiding behind obtuse terminology and 'models'
[06:31] <mk_> I don't have a problem with either of those per se
[06:31] <mk_> just find it annoying when that is _all_ that people do, even when there's an obvious communication break down
[06:32] <mk_> like some crappy kind of defence mechanism where an argument is won by using terminology that sounds nice
[06:32] <mk_> over.. say.. making clear, logical sense
[06:33] <mamund> the emotional outbursts from JJ are now quite predictable.
[06:33] <mk_> I think somewhere that guy does actually have something valuable to contribute
[06:33] <mamund> he's repeated the same worn hyperbole for more than a decade now.
[06:34] <mk_> I'm highly suspicious about whether he has even made an attempt to really study REST
[06:34] <mk_> his criticisms are that stupid..
[06:36] <mk_> I almost feel like pointing him at Roy quotes admitting that the hypertext part of the diss is missing, and point out all the other places where he's stressed the vital importance of it to a REST architecture
[06:36] <mamund> he's so quick to fire off the same tired compalints that he didn't even notice that _I_ never even made a comment on Stilkov's re-post of Aristotle's article on XPATH.
[06:37] <mk_> the lack of solid content on how/why hypertext should be done, and how is helps evolution
[06:37] <mk_> that is actually a pretty big hole in the 'REST solution'
[06:38] <mk_> as far as m2m goes
[06:38] <mk_> mamund: haha I didn't even spot that I just assumed you had written it
[06:38] <mk_> that is hillarious
[06:38] <mk_> what a donk.
[06:39] <mamund> i'm pretty sure he hasn't even clicked on the link. otherwise, he'd drag Stilkov into the argument, too.
[06:39] <mk_> that XOM thing he linked to
[06:40] <mk_> the 'model' behind it kind of reminded me of how I see forms working in m2m
[06:41] <mk_> http://jeffsutherland.org/oopsla99/Dubray/dubray_files/image006.gif
[06:41] <mk_> if data structure is a 'template' and data is 'state'
[06:41] <mamund> i remember XOM only in passing.
[06:42] <mk_> and an instance is a representation
[06:42] <mk_> i.e. representation = template(state)
[06:43] <mk_> but I don't think I'll bother exploring it with him
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[08:01] <mamund> " I can assure you that anyone involving in designing or consuming "REST" APIs is just wasting his or her time." - JJ Dubray https://plus.google.com/108611857274279871131/posts/badsAujJzrY
[08:10] <mk_> mamund: do you reckon this'll set him off?
[08:10] <mk_> "Do you think your previous involvements with initiatives related to WS-* adds to or subtracts from your credibility on these matters? "
[08:11] <mk_> I would really like to interview him.
[08:29] <mamund> LOL
[08:30] <mamund> after years of watching JJ, i really can't say what 'will set him off', etc.
[08:31] <mamund> let's see if he responds.
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[09:06] <mk_> ..
[09:06] <mk_> :)
[09:06] <mamund> very funny stuff, now.
[09:11] <mk_> he is batshit insane
[09:11] <mk_> in fact, that would be doing a disservice to batshit.. he's just a level of insane that is not categorizable
[09:11] <mk_> he's dialled it all the way up to 11 for this one
[09:12] <mk_> Xpath..? XPATH?? FU REST BIGOT 1!11!!!
[09:12] <mamund> this ghread is finally starting to crack me up.
[09:17] <mk_> how does it feel to be ordained grand master by JJ ?
[09:31] <mamund> such a h00t
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[09:53] <whartung> not Dubray again
[09:58] <whartung> Dibs on rights to the mamund in a white pointy hat "Grand Master" t-shirt
[10:22] <mamund> whartung: LOL
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[10:37] trygvis learned of HTTPU and HTTPMU today
[10:38] <mamund> ???
[10:39] <trygvis> http over udp, both unicast and multicast
[10:39] <mamund> wow
[10:39] <trygvis> there's also CoAP which is similar (almost equalient) to http
[10:40] <mamund> i'd heard of coAP, but not http+udp
[10:40] <trygvis> coap looks very nice
[10:40] <mamund> has possibilities
[10:41] <trygvis> certainly. it's the most sane attempt on something http-ish for embedded systems
[10:41] <mamund> yep
[10:42] <trygvis> I'm working on an implementation now, and I hope erlend will implement the coap<=>http gateway
[10:43] <mamund> interesting.
[10:43] <mamund> would like to hear how it goes
[10:43] <whartung> HTTP over UDP makes no sense.
[10:43] <mamund> +1
[10:44] <whartung> Or, I should say, how is HTTP extended to account for the inherent unreliability of UDP?
[10:46] <trygvis> sure it make sense, you have the same issues even with tcp. just not as likely
[10:47] <trygvis> maybe not sense, but it's not insane :)
[10:47] <whartung> no, you don't have the same issues with TCP
[10:47] <whartung> TCP is a reliable protocol
[10:47] <whartung> UDP is not.
[10:47] <whartung> you "know" when TCP mucks up
[10:47] <trygvis> "reliable"
[10:48] <whartung> the network may be unreliable, but the protocol itself is not.
[10:48] <trygvis> you can always loose the response message
[10:48] <whartung> but that's an HTTP problem, not a TCP problem
[10:48] <trygvis> no-one would call the checksums of TCP very reliable
[10:49] <whartung> With UDP the mesage you ssend may get there a) not at all, b) out of order, c) with pieces missing
[10:49] <trygvis> true. but as we're really talking about http you don't know anything about message order there either
[10:49] <mamund> trygvis: i guess i need to do more digging, but seems that UDP requires an "error-correction" strategy that seems hard to do for MIME types commonly used over HTTP.
[10:49] <whartung> and even better, if any of those DO happen, you as a client OR server DON'T KNOW IT.
[10:50] <trygvis> and UDP has (optional) checksumming
[10:50] <whartung> but it's mopre than checksumming that makes it relaible TCP has resend protcols and ordering that it cleans up behind the scenes.
[10:51] <trygvis> mamund: true. also none of the currently used mime types are applicable for several other reasons (like message size, 64k max) and the constraint of the endpoints (in the CoAP sense)
[10:51] <trygvis> coap specifies resending
[10:51] <trygvis> note that coap is not "http over udp", it's solving a specific problem, just reusing http/internet semantics
[10:52] <mamund> yep. but i admit...
[10:52] <mamund> the possiblity of "streaming" for web pages is compelling.
[10:52] <trygvis> for subscribing to a message stream for online chatting and stuff like that?
[10:53] <mamund> well, just the idea that you aren't required to treat "HTTP" requests as blocks, but as streams has interesting possibilities, IMO.
[10:54] <mamund> the length of a doc is no longer such as issue
[10:54] <trygvis> right, I see what you mean
[10:54] <trygvis> whartung: also, http has good mechanisms to handle out of order messages which is nice for something that is udp based
[10:54] <mamund> the possibility of packing multiple requests/responses in a single stream, etc.
[10:54] <mamund> just intersting POVs.
[10:54] <whartung> what mechanims?
[10:54] <trygvis> etags for one, and it's always possible to build into the media type
[10:54] <mamund> i like CoAP because it tries to address head-of-line blocking (tran-id)
[10:55] <mamund> well, streaming causes new challenges for caching proxies.
[10:55] <whartung> HTTP is not a streaming protocol. It pretty much sends stuff en-masse
[10:55] <whartung> obviously, folks stream over it, but they're tunneling, frankly;
[10:56] <whartung> HTTP == Socket in those cases
[10:57] <whartung> hey mk_, you wanna take this one? It's actually interesting. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8884461/domain-driven-design-and-rest-how-best-to-implement-link-relations-for-hateoas
[10:59] <mamund> whartung: re: HTTP != streaming, right on.
[10:59] <mamund> my interest is in the idea of a protocol that supports "web pages" but is based on streaming.
[10:59] <mamund> IOW, i am intersted in the problem and the possibliities.
[11:00] <whartung> well that's supported now via pipelining right?
[11:00] <trygvis> sounds a bit like SIP where you use messages with mime types to control streams (and lots of other stuff too)
[11:00] <mamund> i suspect (hope?) that HTTP is not the "end-of-the-line" for web protocols...
[11:00] <whartung> the problem there is correlating the requests with the response, yes? I don't know how that is done
[11:00] <mamund> and am always interested in attempts to change/advance in this space
[11:01] <whartung> but the pipeline can suffer from a "blocking message" problem.
[11:01] <whartung> ...because it's a pipeline...
[11:01] <mamund> whartung: yep, lots of problems abound. i have no answers today.
[11:01] <mamund> i don't thinks there _are_ no answers, tho<g>
[11:01] <mamund> hence, my interest.
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[11:09] <mk_> whartung: I'll look at that in a sec
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[11:12] <darrelmiller> whartung: That's hdave1's question. He's here in the room.
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[11:18] <hdave1> hey darrelmiller, hey whartung
[11:18] <hdave1> i thought about posting that question here, but figured it would be good to record the answer(s) for perpetuity
[11:19] <hdave1> plus, its an implementation-flavored question
[11:19] <darrelmiller> Yeah, it makes sense to put the question on SO. We regularly point to SO questions from here.
[11:19] <hdave1> cool. i just don't have enough experience with JAX-B to know if JAX-B adapters is black-hole or not...
[11:20] <trygvis> if you're stuck with jaxb I would put your REST media types around your internal domain objects
[11:21] <hdave1> trygvis: i am already doing that, my problem is that there is no domain object that represents a link
[11:21] <trygvis> what do you use to serve the requests? servlets? jsr-311/jax-rs?
[11:21] <hdave1> servlets , jax-rs
[11:21] <hdave1> via apache cxf atm
[11:22] <trygvis> of course, that wouldn't make sense. your internal domain doesn't know anything of links, but your REST stuff does
[11:22] <hdave1> trygvis: precisely
[11:22] <hdave1> thats an application flow, API level concern
[11:23] <trygvis> well, perhaps. depends on your definition of API
[11:23] <hdave1> true enough
[11:23] <trygvis> if you're building a really tight set of classes that represent your domain I guess you'll end up with two chunks of code. one for the business domain and one for the REST stuff
[11:24] <hdave1> DTOs?
[11:24] <trygvis> that is the way I tend to go these days, two separate things but one depend on the other
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[11:24] <trygvis> no, not at all
[11:24] <hdave1> (whew)
[11:24] <hdave1> JAX-B is great for marshalling/unmarshalling domain objects with XML, but if you need to return anything extra in your payload, then you need to do something else
[11:25] <trygvis> I never, ever use jaxb. it's impossible to make domain objects with it
[11:25] <hdave1> trygvis: really? (i new to it) what's the issue?
[11:25] <trygvis> but say you have a Person from the business domain (IOW, the 'internal' stuff)
[11:25] <hdave1> k
[11:26] <trygvis> then you have some sort of hypermedia to operate on this objects
[11:26] <trygvis> -s
[11:26] <trygvis> which in your example would be "application/mything+xml"
[11:26] <hdave1> yup
[11:27] <trygvis> then I'd write a MyThing class (possibly with all the jaxb annotations on it), and a MyThingResource which does all the jax-rs stuff
[11:28] <hdave1> (light bulb)
[11:28] <trygvis> that you use "thing" in your example is a bit disconcerting though
[11:28] <hdave1> feels like RPC huh?
[11:28] <trygvis> as REST stuff tend to operate on aggregates (the DDD concept)
[11:29] <hdave1> usually it does...usually i am passing complex domain object graphs around...its the nature of my app (I think)...the simple "Foo" is because I wanted something short for the SO question
[11:30] <hdave1> trygvis: do you use JAX-RS?
[11:30] <trygvis> I have, but now I've converted mostly to scala
[11:30] <trygvis> it's what I tell java projects to use though
[11:32] <hdave1> I need to process this idea
[11:32] <trygvis> I'll be around :)
[11:32] <hdave1> i totally get the idea of a MyThing class....it's not really a DTO, but more like a wrapper around some domain classes....
[11:32] trygvis fights some UDP messages
[11:32] <hdave1> if I understand
[11:33] <trygvis> it's the core of the HATEOAS thing. it is your public hypermedia and your contract to the world
[11:33] <hdave1> got it
[11:33] <trygvis> you can change all the stuff you want in the business domain, but you can't break your hyper media. ever
[11:33] <trygvis> or mamund will get upset
[11:33] <hdave1> we wouldn't want that!
[11:33] <trygvis> no, we don't. he can kick you off the channel!
[11:34] <hdave1> i added from CXF content to the wiki today as a way to kiss up to him...
[11:34] <hdave1> s/from/some
[11:34] <hdave1> ;-)
[11:34] <hdave1> the MyThingResource class I'm not sure I understand given my knowledge of Jax-RS
[11:34] <trygvis> but I've never used CXF as a jax-rs implementation though, always jersey
[11:35] <hdave1> i have 3-4 root resources
[11:35] <hdave1> CXF seems decent enough so far....
[11:35] <trygvis> good to know
[11:35] <darrelmiller> That "not really a DTO" thing for me is a model that is part of a MVC triad on the server. The View renders the representation of the 'model/resource'
[11:36] <hdave1> darrelmiller: sounds like you agree with trygvis, yes?
[11:36] <trygvis> there are many ways to implement the actual resources, but just keep it pragmatic. as URLs are opaque the client's doesn't care anyway ;)
[11:37] <darrelmiller> I only skimmed through the conversation, but you definitely don't want to be exposing your domain model directly.
[11:37] <hdave1> sure...its just that I don't have an MVC on the server....I only have REST API coming from a CXF servlet
[11:37] <hdave1> so I create a REST object model and use JAX-B / CXF to ship that over the wire
[11:38] aGHz1 -> aGHz
[11:38] <darrelmiller> hdave1: I'm not saying you have to do MVC, I'm just agreeing that you need some intermedia layer to model your application workflow.
[11:38] <hdave1> this wraps the domain, like a presentation model would in MVP
[11:38] <darrelmiller> and not expose your domain.
[11:38] <hdave1> darrelmiller: we are on the same page
[11:38] <darrelmiller> cool :-)
[11:39] <hdave1> trygvis: regarding the controller (MyThingResource) however, I'll have to think about that WRT my URL design and JAX-RS annotations, etc.
[11:39] <hdave1> right now i have a ton of controllers/resources....all using the application/mystuff+xml media type
[11:40] <hdave1> ton = 6
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[11:40] <trygvis> that's probably fine as it is. there's no need to design any URLs
[11:41] <trygvis> if you want to look at some code you might glean something from this: https://github.com/javaBin/incogito. in particular the -domain and -web projects
[11:41] <hdave1> will do...thanks
[11:41] <trygvis> I a URL builder which is half neat, half scary
[11:42] <trygvis> you can't build an invalid URL with it, but it take a whole lot of code to implement it. (not many lines to use it though)
[11:42] <hdave1> I don't have one yet, been cogitating on it though...earlier today was studying Restfullie to get ideas
[11:51] <mk_> who the fuck is "Mike S"
[11:51] <mamund> no clue
[11:51] <mamund> too many damn 'mikes' if you ask me
[11:51] <mk_> suspicious dude on google+ with no followers and apparently a huge blindspot for JJ's Epic Doucheyness(tm)
[11:53] <mk_> seriously.. why am I getting accused of being offensive and non-technical in a thread with some mental French bloke spouting absolute dog shit all over the place?!
[11:53] <mamund> LOL, i luvzez the inter-tubes!
[11:53] <mamund> ok, serious for a mo....
[11:53] <mamund> who here is contemplating attending WWW in Lyon, Fr this year?
[11:54] <trygvis> mk_: where the discussion happening? rest-discuss?
[11:54] <mk_> I don't think I can get the time off
[11:54] <mk_> trygvis: on google+
[11:55] <mk_> it's really not worth wasting your time reading
[11:55] <mk_> it's just JJ Dubray being a massive cock (as usual) and me kind of half taking the piss and half trying to get him to make a point
[11:56] <mk_> mamund: is JJ going ?
[11:56] <darrelmiller> Every community has a JJ. He's like a honeypot for people with too much time on their hands.
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[11:57] <darrelmiller> mamund: Nah, I'm saving up brownie points for RESTFest.... there will be a RESTFest 2012, right?
[11:58] <bigbluehat> heck yeah!
[11:58] <bigbluehat> hi darrelmiller
[11:58] <bigbluehat> we're still working out dates, announcements, promo videos, etc
[11:58] <bigbluehat> sorry for the lag
[11:58] <darrelmiller> bigbluehat: \o/ .o. \o/
[11:58] <bigbluehat> :D
[12:00] <mamund> awww, c'mon...
[12:00] <mamund> _someone_ here has gotta be going to WWW2012, eh?
[12:00] <darrelmiller> I get enough exposure to French here in Quebec ;-)
[12:01] <mamund> :)
[12:01] <mk_> when is it ?
[12:04] <bigbluehat> mamund: it's a bit of a drive
[12:05] <mamund> :)
[12:08] darrelmiller notes that all future references to mamund should be prefixed with Grand Master mamund
[12:08] <mamund> do i need to change my handle?
[12:09] <mamund> or, the more familar eponym: el Gordo<g>
[12:11] <mk_> lol
[12:12] <mk_> isn't that one of those things tribal people put their nobs in ?
[12:12] <mamund> ahhhhh
[12:12] <mk_> oh no wait
[12:12] <mk_> that's a "guord"
[12:12] <mk_> I think
[12:13] <mamund> yeesh, thanks mk_
[12:13] <mk_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koteka
[12:13] <mk_> el Guordo
[12:14] mamund is not sure he wants to look there
[12:14] mamund was correct
[12:14] <mk_> no there's nothing too spicey
[12:14] <mamund> LOL
[12:14] <mk_> nothing visual anyway
[12:14] <mamund> that you would even "go there" is a h00t
[12:15] <hdave1> darrelmiller: you are talking about this post? https://plus.google.com/118254663306823054612/posts
[12:15] <mamund> brightens my day
[12:15] <mamund> oh, wait, mk_
[12:15] <mamund> i get it
[12:15] <hdave1> sry - like here: https://plus.google.com/118254663306823054612/posts/gFHBGiaTwmj
[12:15] <mamund> i should _wear_ this when i show up for the WWW2012, right?
[12:16] <trygvis> you should wear it like only a grand master does
[12:16] <mamund> btw - anyone following @mnot today?
[12:16] <mamund> i think he's having a religious experience
[12:16] <mk_> lol
[12:17] <trygvis> ha, funny
[12:18] <mk_> hdave1: yes that is one example of JJ "douching it up"
[12:18] <hdave1> got it
[12:19] <mk_> it happens a lot, I can't help but slap him around a bit - I'm a bit sad like that
[12:31] <mk_> mamund: was it not clear what I meant by 'meta-argument' ?
[12:32] <mk_> *sigh*
[12:32] <mk_> I give up.
[12:32] <mamund> yeah, i would.
[12:33] <mk_> I should've just stuck with my original 2 word response to "Mike S"
[12:34] <mamund> ?
[12:34] <mk_> the second word was 'off'
[12:35] <mamund> :
[12:35] <mamund> what's w/ this " young rubyist/javascripter/mobile-app developer" crap?
[12:35] <mk_> I think Mike S may well be a fake person
[12:36] <mamund> yeah, crossed my mind
[12:36] <mamund> why bother
[12:36] <mk_> because you're weird and French and egotistical
[12:36] <mk_> :)
[12:37] <mamund> would be great if G+ showed account create date/time
[12:37] <mk_> indeed, oh well
[12:37] <mamund> feh
[12:37] <mk_> <careface>
[12:38] <mamund> :)
[12:38] <mamund> no, not "biting" on the trip to Lyon this year, mk_?
[12:38] <mk_> face :care => false do |javascript| var mobile = function() { return function() { console.log('loldongs') }(); } end
[12:39] <mk_> mamund: when is it ?
[12:39] <mk_> I'm moving over to the UK in about a month
[12:40] <mk_> reckon i'm gonna have a pretty busy few months with work and settling back into the motherland
[12:40] <trygvis> nice usage of CoAP: http://mc1322x.devl.org/projects/coap-fob.md
[12:47] <mk_> BWAHAHAHA
[12:47] <mk_> not the CoAP thing btw ,that is wicked
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[13:16] <mamund>
[13:21] <mamund> "...all RESTafarian that I know dating back to 2004 where I suggested that approach at the TAC, refused it categorically and mocked it." - JJ
[13:21] <mamund> hmmm.....
[13:21] <mamund> wonder if this is the smoking gun (so to speak)
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[14:26] <mamund> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/195
[14:26] <mamund> and...
[14:26] <mamund> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0071.html
[14:36] <whartung> what? more mocking?
[14:37] <mamund> well, it's a clear invitation for someone to write a proposal to support PUT & DELETE for HTML.FORM
[14:37] <whartung> should it stop there? What about headers and such? There's a lot more to an HTTP request than Method and payload.
[14:38] <mamund> "should" it stop?
[14:38] <mamund> maybe, maybe not
[14:38] <darrelmiller> Or if you want to have more fun, you could poke yourself in the eye, every hour.
[14:38] <whartung> Ooh! Poking! \o/
[14:38] <whartung> *.o ..Ouch!
[14:39] <whartung> actually I guess we can have content type as well...sorta..I suppose..to a point.
[14:40] <darrelmiller> mamund: I've been pimping stuff from "The Two Mikes" on a new Microsoft advisory board. So much fun telling people they are reinventing the wheel :-)
[14:40] <whartung> But that's right up with use RESTafarians, right? Isn't that what we do? I thought I read that somewhere.
[14:41] <mamund> LOL
[14:41] <mamund> for laughs (while waiting for a big update) i've been trolling JJ's 2003 posts to www lists.
[14:41] <mamund> you'd be surprised (not).
[14:42] <whartung> highlites?
[14:42] <mamund> "I have a suggestion, now that Office is XML enabled, we could all return
[14:42] <mamund> to using GOFM (good old fax machines), and fax our XML back and forth.
[14:42] <mamund> That way you get security, non-repudiation and guaranteed delivery for
[14:42] <mamund> free, things that are far from given when you use an HTTP GET/POST with
[14:42] <mamund> SOAP bubbles or not."
[14:43] <whartung> Was he a DCE or CORBA Rube back in the day?
[14:43] <mamund> worked for Attachemate at the time of these posts, i think.
[14:44] <whartung> o
[14:45] <whartung> speaking of www lists, I wonder what horrors the health care group are boiling in their cauldrons.
[15:01] mamund has had enough fun for the day. ta-ta!
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[21:45] Blazeix -> Blazeix_
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 17 2012