[00:15:01] darrelmiller (~darrelmil@65.94.30.184) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [00:27:32] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [00:27:56] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) joined #rest. [00:31:17] kennethreitz (~kennethre@c-24-127-96-129.hsd1.va.comcast.net) left irc: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. [00:32:23] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [01:27:59] caaakeeey (~caaakeeey@gatekeeper-ext.zeus.com) joined #rest. [01:42:38] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [01:43:33] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [03:52:11] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) joined #rest. [04:56:42] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [04:57:07] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [05:19:02] zazi (~zazi@p579D3696.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rest. [05:20:00] I'm happy that the current discussion on rest-discuss is getting into the right direction ;) [05:22:34] lol :) [05:23:13] sbanwart (~sbanwart@72.240.63.122) joined #rest. [05:38:21] mikekelly, could you reply on this message http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/18396 ? [05:42:28] zazi: yeah thanks for reminding me - I left it this morning cos I was reading it on my mobile and i'm crap at writing emails on my phone :) [05:43:00] I'll try and respond in a bit, gotta sort a few things first [05:47:28] darrelmiller (~darrelmil@70.24.176.12) joined #rest. [05:49:07] cool, no problem, take your time [06:09:10] Wow, just read some of that rest-discuss stuff. I'm shocked that we are debating the value of LE vs LO. [06:10:22] I don't see why you would not determine that via a relation [06:10:39] Sure. I would. [06:10:49] But that didn't seem to be the debate. [06:11:08] well I think mamund was suggesting that didn't count [06:11:12] The debate seemed to be that the client doesn't need to know the difference. [06:12:16] ok I took the discussion to be that a media type for machines doesn't need a hypermedia control for both [06:12:23] (since you can delegate it to the relation) [06:12:42] ahhh, ok maybe. [06:12:46] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-74-177-98-159.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest. [06:12:54] I think mike was saying that's not 'real' LE [06:13:17] and my point was really just to figure out whether or not HAL's "framing" or wahtever the word is [06:13:24] Actually, I was thinking about that the other day. What's the difference between a HAL Link element and a Resource with no content? [06:13:29] :) [06:13:50] a resource with no content is basically how I want to build ESI (and auto-transclusion) into HAL [06:14:31] Seems reasonable. By using a Link you are explicitly stating that you don't want to embed any content. [06:14:38] right [06:14:55] but you could easily do HAL without using links at all. [06:15:15] yeah HAL originally was just links [06:15:16] either self-closing or not [06:15:31] right. That rings a bell. [06:15:49] back in a bit [06:26:30] that thread is monstrous.. [06:27:03] and the Yahoo interface to it sucks. And my Gmail is not much better. [06:27:20] yeah I much prefer google groups, personaly [06:27:28] agreed [06:39:56] sbanwart (~sbanwart@72.240.63.122) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [06:40:07] caaakeeey (~caaakeeey@gatekeeper-ext.zeus.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [06:40:35] caaakeeey (~caaakeeey@gatekeeper-ext.zeus.com) joined #rest. [06:41:30] What am I not understanding? Why do people use the term protocol when talking about media type details? [06:42:07] What do and have to do with protocol? Aren't we using HTTP as our application protocol? [06:43:49] I would say and have a "processing model" that defines how a user-agent interacts with the HTTP protocol. [06:45:30] Action: mikekelly looks to mamund.. [06:48:01] mikekelly: mamund is still sleeping :-) [06:48:17] We will abuse him later. muhahahaha [06:48:18] wtf it's almost 3pm.. [06:48:25] laaazyyyy.. [06:49:05] What can I say... he's old, you know [06:51:02] bwaha. [06:53:14] zazi (~zazi@p579D3696.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [07:10:01] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) joined #rest. [07:50:47] quest88 (~quest88@c-98-207-205-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #rest. [08:03:07] quest88 (~quest88@c-98-207-205-137.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Quit: quest88 [08:13:17] Action: mamund wakes up, grabs his walker, and heads to the day room w/ the other crazies [08:13:45] mamund: Sleep well :-) [08:13:51] LOL, not really [08:14:11] so, i guess i annoyed the folks on the list over the last 12 hrs, eh? [08:14:35] I don't think anyone is annoyed. [08:14:42] had a couple chances to "end it" but didn't [08:14:49] well, that's nice, i guess [08:19:23] DracoBlue (~Adium@ip-vlan-obckunde-02-217-66-60-14.pixelpark.net) left #rest. [08:23:30] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [08:23:43] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [08:25:30] huh ? [08:25:42] I don't think anyone's annoyed mamund :P [08:26:00] I should know, I'm the expert. [08:27:14] heee [08:27:35] well,that thread draged on for quite a while; not sure if it provdied much new info, etc. [08:27:54] yeah sorry about that [08:27:59] LOL [08:28:04] I did try my hardest to start it off on the right foot [08:28:10] both you and darrelmiller added good new data [08:28:25] i thought of rel="stylesheet", but left it out [08:28:28] mamund: Well it pointed out to me that some poeple still don't realize the significance of LE and LO. [08:28:34] but quickly got distracted by people telling me I "don't get it" :| [08:28:40] That's good to know. [08:28:46] i _did_ _not_ think to pursue the state transition POV, tho. [08:29:02] yes, darrelmiller, i think you are right. [08:29:08] mamund: was my point about rel="stylesheet" even clear? [08:29:12] or did I miss the point ? [08:29:18] to me, it was. [08:29:21] +1 [08:29:30] as was the inline resource idea w/ HAL & Atom. [08:29:30] ok cool [08:29:34] all good stuff, IMO. [08:29:43] yeah - is that worth making distinct or not ? [08:29:54] I always get confused when we talk about 'embed' [08:30:02] it was for me. [08:30:07] now i am not sure about teh frame stuff. [08:30:18] I dunno why I picked frame [08:30:20] i thought about that quite a bit when forming teh factors. [08:30:27] stupid word :| [08:30:29] i decided not to include it [08:30:37] well, i think i know what you mean, tno [08:30:39] boundary, etc. [08:30:41] right? [08:30:43] yeah [08:30:46] ypoe [08:30:48] yep [08:30:49] I was thinking maybe [08:30:49] [08:30:55] active/passive transclude [08:30:56] or something [08:31:16] yeah, i think the boundary notion also touches on the state change point from darrelmiller [08:31:44] maybe not [08:31:46] anyway [08:32:13] mikekelly: Are you trying to distinguish between a LE and a representation that embeds other resource representations directly in the response? [08:32:19] yeah [08:32:22] exactly [08:32:35] to me those are two distinct things [08:32:40] 'things' [08:32:41] :) [08:32:42] i think Markus continues to think of HTTP as a file-style protocol. and that messages are simply data moved about. [08:32:58] Hmmm. I don't know if the distinction is necessary to formalize though. [08:33:14] darrelmiller: it's definitely helpful when analysing a media type [08:33:32] it's something a *lot* of media types do [08:34:24] yes, but is the distinction necesary to be able to consume the representation? [08:34:28] the reason I chose 'frame' over boundary is because e.g. in HAL it's not only a boundary but it has semantic meaning that resets the context URI of the containing info [08:34:52] darrelmiller: no, but I thought H Factors were more a framework for analysing hypermedia ? [08:35:28] IMHO a H Factor is only significant if it provides some information to the client. [08:35:46] mamund ..? [08:35:48] :) [08:35:53] he doesn't know. [08:35:57] sorry, was backgrounding this convo [08:36:01] he's probably got confused or fallen asleep again [08:36:01] 'sup? [08:36:03] oh there he is [08:36:07] wake up. [08:36:09] Does the client care whether the resource is embedded or just part of a bigger representation. [08:36:13] was playing mahjong w/ the old ladies [08:36:20] hmmm [08:36:25] I suppose you could allow a client to "refresh" the embedded resource. [08:36:34] pretty sure that's context dependent, right? [08:36:40] as in "yes, i might"? [08:36:45] why ask? [08:36:54] That is only possible because it is an embeded resource. [08:37:27] think of Jon Moore's example where the media type actually has options to allow the client... [08:37:32] to 1) just render the link [08:37:51] 2) resolve the link client side as an agument to the representation [08:37:57] mikekelly: But HAL already provides this distinction by using the element. Are you trying to elevate this concept to a H-Factor? [08:38:03] 3) or the server sends the entire "augment" w/o a link [08:38:18] darrelmiller: yeah elevate it to an h factor [08:38:26] Ahhh. [08:38:57] You probably need to discuss that with some authority on H-Factors ;-) [08:39:13] I was trying to do that on rest-discuss but the grumpy old bastard ignored me [08:39:15] mikekelly: what is the hypermedia factor you want to identify [08:39:33] Action: mamund whacks mikekelly w/ his cane [08:39:40] steady on. [08:39:43] :) [08:39:52] :D [08:39:57] erm [08:40:30] it's to have 2 separate h factors for this "pre-fetched"/passive transclusion vs client-fetched/active transclusion [08:41:21] it's possible to do neither, either, or both [08:41:38] Do you need to distinguish between passive partial transclusion and passive full transclusion? [08:41:38] and w/ the same or two controls for either [08:42:00] darrelmiller: no I wouldn't go that far in the h factors [08:42:08] I don't have a scientific explanation as to why though :) [08:42:29] infact, I don't have a scientific explanation for anything [08:42:30] See, going back to my previous example of doing a refresh. You couldn't do a refresh on a partial. [08:42:48] All you could do is convert a partial into a full. [08:42:56] or refresh the containing resource ? [08:43:25] ..because it is the container resource that decides how much of the embedded resource to include. [08:43:38] yeah, totally [08:43:44] well that is the case with HAL anyway [08:44:02] you could have a different type which says it must be full [08:44:14] but I'd say that was a bad design [08:44:17] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) joined #rest. [08:44:25] given that Content-Location doesn't work that way in HTTP [08:44:46] and it's kind of a similar conundru, [08:44:48] m [08:45:02] Well my official position on the subject is, I don't know. [08:45:57] for me the 'passive transclusion' (do we need a better term?) is an optimisation thing [08:46:18] LEP "Link Embed Passive" [08:46:21] is it Jon Moore that did the solution that can have clients deal with going from active to passive ? [08:46:28] yes [08:46:31] that just makes me think leprecy [08:46:57] PLE Passive Link Embed [08:47:13] ooh and ALE for Active Link Embed [08:47:18] nice. [08:47:29] PALE ALE [08:47:42] Passively Active ? [08:47:54] PAssive Link Embed [08:48:05] Ahhh... [08:48:17] mamund: so.. when are you going to work in our corrections? [08:48:26] ROFL [08:49:13] embedding becomes much more important when your media type gets used outside of HTTP, where you can no longer assume every consumer of a document can follow a link [08:49:56] Does there exist software that can't do HTTP requests? Yuck, glad I don't have to deal with that :-P [08:50:02] I'm working on one right now where the media type essentially has to start out as hypermedia and then become gradually less so as it ages [08:50:30] fu-manchu: could you do that with hal ? [08:50:32] So the ALE becomes PALE over time? [08:50:43] sorry, was called away [08:50:57] no worries, we fixed H Factors for you while you were gone [08:51:07] oh, so glad! [08:51:09] you're welcome. [08:51:15] ha! [08:51:21] ;) [08:51:25] mamund: You can still update your book right? [08:51:33] no worries [08:51:54] btw - about to sign for another book starting this week. [08:52:01] wtf.. [08:52:07] you are a machine! [08:52:20] easy one this time, tho [08:52:23] It's not on Web API is it? [08:52:29] nope [08:52:41] Extreme Zimmerframing ? [08:52:48] wht? [08:53:06] I'm sorta talking with Pedro, Pablo and Glenn about doing one on Web API. [08:53:09] was woth a shot. [08:53:17] https://www.google.com/search?q=Zimmer+Frame&hl=en&sa=X&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=72wMT__HNcL50gH9_9n7BQ&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1301&bih=801 [08:53:23] bwhaaa [08:53:29] saturated market? [08:53:34] ROFL [08:53:53] Action: mamund spit his tea when that came up [08:53:59] is zimmerframe not an american thing? [08:54:08] never hared of it [08:54:15] me neither. [08:54:16] course, i'm losing my hearing, too. [08:54:26] oh so my funny was actually a big culture fail [08:54:36] that's just hilarious, dude [08:54:45] the images were awesome. [08:54:53] what's your book about then? [08:54:57] http://www.find-me-a-gift.co.uk/zimmer-frame-old-mans-costume-inflatable-zimmer-frame.html [08:54:59] you can't tease like that and not spill the means. [08:55:06] means? [08:55:07] beans. [08:55:16] heinz [08:55:27] http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1012/zimmer-frame-zimmer-frame-demotivational-posters-1292234010.jpg [08:55:38] sheesh, i could spend hours doing this. [08:56:49] Z-factors [08:57:02] ha [08:57:17] me running the half-marathon:http://www.yallaf1.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/d10kor1614.jpg [08:57:37] that is [08:57:40] interesting. [08:57:42] note the redbull [08:58:24] ha, the text is even better: http://www.yallaf1.com/2010/10/28/ecclestone-gives-finger-to-zimmer-frame-gift/ [08:58:28] ok, ok [09:04:12] zazi (~zazi@p579D3696.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rest. [09:06:50] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-74-177-98-159.gsp.bellsouth.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [09:07:41] o/ [09:08:06] \o/ [09:24:00] darrelmiller: you should _totally_ do the Web API book [09:25:01] mikekelly: you should _totally_ to the Zimmerframing book [09:26:12] hey, bigbluehat made the InfoQ! [09:26:15] http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Why-CouchDB [09:26:20] mamund: Glenn and Pablo are talking to publishers at the moment. Still not sure if this will go the traditional route of be self published. [09:26:34] keep me posted. [09:26:35] I'm looking at doing more the client side stuff. [09:26:54] if you like, i can introduce you to my editor @ O'Reilly. [09:27:01] bigbluehat: Nice ! [09:27:21] mamund: Apparently Glenn and Pablo have contacts there... [09:27:37] yep, i think O'Reilly does the MS Press stuff now, too. [09:27:38] mamund: Did you see my HttpClient post? [09:27:42] yep [09:27:44] nice one [09:28:10] I got more page views on that yesterday than I have in the last six months combined [09:30:27] very cool [09:30:28] theartisan (u4087@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkshgmcocfcjwack) joined #rest. [09:34:00] theartisan (u4087@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dkshgmcocfcjwack) left #rest. [09:42:26] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-74-177-98-159.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest. [09:47:59] dkubb (~dkubb@50.92.131.237) left irc: Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com [10:12:56] KevBurnsWork (~KevBurnsW@50.0.103.39) joined #rest. [10:19:07] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) joined #rest. [10:23:12] mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) left irc: Quit: mhausenblas [10:29:25] RDF (itself as knowledge representation structure/knowledge representation language) doesn't need LE, because it's all about resource _description_ - LE is only important for hypermedia clients that display content for humans [10:30:40] zazi - It can also be useful in M2M scenarios. LE is just a way of partitioning a resource based on lifecycle of the data. i.e. how long it can be cached for. [10:32:27] darrelmiller, can you give an example in RDF (choose your preferred RDF serialisation format) [10:32:51] the image example doesn't work :) [10:33:09] Not sure why it matters what the media type is. [10:33:22] here's a example. [10:33:40] I might get cut off though as a have a conference call starting soon.... [10:33:53] okay, no problem [10:33:54] My client app loads a root resource from a service. [10:34:15] There are a set of available databases that are presented as links in the root resource. [10:34:25] It's a multi-tenant type of app. [10:34:35] darrelmiller: made any WPF apps? [10:34:55] Jarda: Partially WPF and partially winforms. [10:34:58] darrelmiller: have you used telerik radcontrols for wpf? [10:35:21] We are using them on one of the projects I am working on now. I don't have much experience with them. [10:35:26] ok [10:35:35] zazi: One of the links in the root resource is to the user's preferences. [10:35:35] I'm having thread safety problems.. [10:35:59] which sucks on a async http client app.. [10:36:11] jarda: Hell yeah. [10:36:16] I see no embedded link till now [10:36:20] NOKAH (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [10:36:38] zazi: The client does a LE on the preferences because inside the preferences, amongst other things is the "preferred" tenant that the user wishes to use. [10:37:32] So to recap. The client retreives the root resource, then GETs a LE link, determines the preferred tenant and then does a LO to get to the "shell" of the tenant. [10:37:34] but that's just another resource with hopefully an own URI [10:37:49] Sure. [10:38:23] The difference to me is that the client did not "navigate" to the preferences end-point. It merely retreived that data and aggregated it into it;s current state. [10:38:27] I think, in RDF there are no concepts for root resource etc. - it's just a graph of interconnected resources [10:38:37] It then navigated to the tenant. [10:38:54] Sure, that's not really that relevant. You could start anywhere. [10:39:06] yep, that's why [10:39:17] The point is from the client's perspective there are two completely different ways to consuming a link. [10:39:27] Action: mamund is back [10:39:44] RDF is all about linking data. It's not about applications. That's the difference. [10:39:58] I know ;) [10:40:02] IMHO REST is about exposing an application workflow, not data. [10:40:13] that's why there can't be LE [10:40:16] Hakon|mbp (~hakon1@193.137.202.84.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [10:40:40] yep, that's why we can combine both (hopefully) elegantly [10:41:24] What do you mean "can't be LE" ? [10:43:57] I don't insist that the embedded link feature is applicable in a RDF M2M media type [10:45:52] i.e. the control flow you described would not fit into a new tag in that media type, e.g., [10:46:56] more verbose: [10:50:39] I think, the user's preferences resource also wouldn't be linked in that root resource with database links (endpoints) [10:55:59] anyway, it makes probably sense to differentiate between "navigation links" and "links that are utilised to process a resource and continue in the application flow" [10:57:02] maybe it's "embedded links" is just a bad naming for this case [10:58:27] it's like a parameter request [11:00:53] so a "navigation link" can be interpreted as "push application into a next state", e.g. "submit-order" [11:01:41] and an "embedded link" can be interpreted as "deliver information to be able to push application into a next state" [11:02:49] this could maybe also "include", or? [11:05:07] maybe the example you've describe is more LT than LE then, or? - i.e. retrieve the resource and run a (SPARQL) query to get a specific piece of information (the preferred tenant) [11:06:55] zazi: fwiw, i _am_ listening to your thoughts here... [11:07:19] this is interesting to me and any/all comments about whether some of the [11:07:35] H-Factors are vague/opaque, mis-named, etc. is helpful [11:07:35] thanks [11:07:44] zazi: You bring up an interesting point. For me an LT would have to be either an LE or LO as well. [11:07:53] np, I'm thinking just out loud [11:07:59] yep, thanks. [11:08:12] thanks for listening ;) [11:08:23] what about "transclusion link" [11:08:32] Your definitions of "navigation link" and "embedded link" make sense to me. [11:08:52] That's how I understand LO and LE. [11:09:00] darrelmiller, I derived them from my understanding of your example [11:09:26] Phew, I would have looked dense if I had disagreed :-) [11:09:43] :) [11:09:56] the term "include" and LE are pretty much synonymous for me also. [11:10:36] okay, maybe I just had problem with embedded in the context of the image example then [11:12:26] Action: darrelmiller has gotta scrum. Be back soon. [11:13:41] the tipping point, there are actions for LEs which are beyond "include the resource" into the "root" resource, e.g., processing a query (as it is the case from the example above) [11:15:44] for the example above, a tag could be looking like this: [11:18:32] 'retrieve-tenant' could be http://example.com/retrieve-tenant and by resolving that URI one retrieves a (SPARQL) query that asks for the preferred tenant (sidenote: SPARQL queries could be described via SPIN, see http://spinrdf.org/ - an RDF format for SPARQL queries) [11:20:57] in such action description one could also include information such as (HTTP) method, or accept/enc-type (anthing else?) [11:23:41] btw, there already exist SPIN descriptions that are attached to usual RDF class (etc.) descriptions [11:27:27] btw2, in they are already able to define/describe functions [11:29:00] (however, in that case these are SPARQL functions) [11:47:24] mamund, maybe I could recycle the RDF Affordance Vocabulary you co-designed with danja ;) [11:47:43] zazi: i'd like to see more of that [11:47:57] danny knows this stuff (RDF design) _much_ better than i [11:48:18] i am most interested in what affordances look like in RDF formats. [11:48:30] and _which_ affordances make sense in that environment. [11:48:41] anything you can add to that is most welcome [11:50:19] I think, maybe one does not have to describe everything in RDF for the hypermedia case (see my sketches above) [11:52:24] e.g. another name proposal for 'action-rel' could be 'affordance' [11:53:15] (ps: I'm quite into RDF design as well ;) ) [11:54:05] zazi: _names_ are not too interesting to me; IOW,that's fine. [11:54:25] what interests me are whether adding affordances to RDF makes sense [11:54:26] (pps: RDF designers sometimes tend to overdesign/describe everything in RDF, which is not always useful) [11:54:36] i.e. will this make a diff in building clients? [11:54:56] and if yes, _which_ affordances are the ones that will make the most noticeable diff [11:55:01] in coding clients. [11:55:03] names are interesting in the context of understanding ;) [11:55:14] sure, but in the end, they are a string of chars. [11:55:27] i.e. one should what other persons in the group speak about [11:55:30] pciing ones that provide the most accurate understanding in RDF-world is fine w/ me [11:55:34] yes, yes [11:55:59] +know [11:56:29] so, any/all efforts that help clarify the impact affordance designs for RDF is most welcome. [11:56:45] my recent discussions (yours and danja excepted) hve led me to think [11:56:52] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@foswiki/developer/SvenDowideit) left irc: Excess Flood [11:57:06] that RDF community is not very interested in adding affordance to responses. [11:57:08] that's fine [11:57:21] but i am still quite interseted in the possibliites [11:57:39] well it depends, I think there are some that are interested in that topic [11:57:54] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@203-206-171-38.perm.iinet.net.au) joined #rest. [11:57:58] sure, i think you (and djana) prove that [11:58:52] one the other side, there are many that like to described services, especially REST services (which is big misunderstanding from my POV, but that's another story ... ;) ) [11:59:24] well, not all media types need affordances. [11:59:26] I think, mhausenblas is also in the boot [11:59:48] mhausenblas has been most encouraging and curious about my stuff; much apprecited. [12:00:20] and I think markuslanthaler most recently as well, or? ;) [12:01:08] and nathan, ... [12:01:11] well, i got the impression from Markus that the affordances i discussed were not important for his work. [12:01:22] yes, nathan has been interested, too. [12:01:25] ok, well. [12:01:26] fine. [12:01:45] do you have access to edit the wiki? [12:01:49] (affordances stuff) [12:01:49] yep, gtg now, and do ... something ... different [12:01:54] yep [12:01:54] :) [12:02:04] feel free to add to the wiki in any way you like [12:02:17] i don't think danny will mind at all. i know it would help me quite a bit [12:02:53] anyway, I think that I have now for the first time an impression how I could connect the different points in a useful and pragmatic manner [12:03:02] very cool [12:03:20] hey, if you want to email me directly on this (mamund@yahoo.com) feel free [12:03:36] okay [12:03:45] thanks again for the time [12:04:18] anything that increases shared understanding improves overall value, IMO. [12:04:28] i get a lot out of this kind of stuff. [12:05:04] np, (it's somehow curious that this topic catches me so much appr. one year after the first period of time) [12:05:18] :) [12:05:25] stuff like that happens to me quite often [12:07:42] RDF is basically about data [12:08:52] which is fine, but it's definitely got a tonne of baggage most people just don't need [12:17:24] i continue to think (hope?) that the sweet spot is [12:18:08] hypermedia for describing protocol interactions ... [12:18:24] and semantic markup for describing problem domain details. [12:18:27] we'll see. [12:18:54] In the same representation? [12:18:54] i _know_ that hypermedia can ve used to share understanding; it happens all the time today [12:19:10] not so sure about the semantic markup (i.e. how much is really shared here) [12:19:30] darrelmiller: either in the same representation or in the same response (i.e. headrs may be needed) [12:19:42] and the representation might be "compound"... [12:20:10] :| [12:20:14] as in the say CSS and XSLT are included as pointers in representations today [12:20:37] I see the following arch. UA <-> HAL/XHTML/etc <-> App Server <-> RDF/JSON/XML <-> Data store. [12:21:02] darrelmiller: so you see RDF as a server-side tech [12:21:11] :S [12:21:27] Yeah. Or if you have a completely batch/crawler type of UA. [12:21:39] I think people care way too much about machines. [12:21:50] WAY too much. [12:21:59] or maybe better to say you see RDF as a data-tech format [12:22:25] all of this mucking around trying to come up with clever mechanisms just makes makes your application harder to consume for 'normal' people [12:22:38] mikekelly: i will confess that sometimes i suspect "M2M" is used as a kind of "hand-waving" to avoid some ugly details [12:22:45] :) [12:23:12] the way some might say "forms" in the same case (as a hand-wave to avoid ugly truths) [12:23:15] :) [12:23:25] "just use a form" [12:24:01] "i'll just emit forms and let the client _choose_" [12:24:10] :) [12:27:14] talios (~textual@akl.smx.co.nz) joined #rest. [13:02:56] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) left irc: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. [13:24:16] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) joined #rest. [13:29:15] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-74-177-98-159.gsp.bellsouth.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [13:46:50] zazi (~zazi@p579D3696.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it [14:00:39] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) left irc: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. [14:04:10] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) joined #rest. [14:35:38] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-092-075-003-110.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Quit: Wombert [14:56:24] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@203-206-171-38.perm.iinet.net.au) left irc: Changing host [14:56:24] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@foswiki/developer/SvenDowideit) joined #rest. [15:09:30] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [15:09:54] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) joined #rest. [15:14:32] dreinull (~dreinull@ip-78-94-220-161.unitymediagroup.de) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [15:42:03] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-092-075-003-110.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest. [15:59:31] kennethreitz (~kennethre@204.14.152.118) left irc: Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/ [16:16:28] Action: mamund is done ignoring important things today. [16:19:00] then you can read this: http://weknowmemes.com/2012/01/blowy-as-fuck-man/ [17:12:03] kennethreitz (~kennethre@173-13-176-158-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #rest. [17:24:32] I just looked at my blog stats and wondered why it was going nuts. Then I found this... http://www.asp.net/ hehe. Me and the Gu! [17:25:19] what the hell are you babbling about darrelmiller? [17:25:31] oic [17:26:24] The Gu is MS devs equivalent to Jobs. :-) [17:29:30] Action: talios takes a break from $work to read up on RESTAS, a Common Lisp web/rest framework - nice. [17:30:24] linky so I can read about it tomorrow [17:30:27]