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[04:37:49] <mikekelly> I'm actually quite proud of this post (in a sad way!), anyone got any thoughts: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/18355
[04:40:06] <mikekelly> mamund: do you know what the defined use of the term 'ontology' means in technology ?
[04:40:48] <mikekelly> cos I honestly don't have the foggiest.. and I use 'fog' deblierately there :)
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[07:04:39] Action: mamund slips in
[07:05:09] <mamund> mikekelly: http://semanticweb.org/wiki/Ontology
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[07:41:18] <mikekelly> thanks mamund
[07:41:30] <mikekelly> so I guess it's technical meaning is just as vague as it's actual meaning..
[07:42:13] <mikekelly> mamund: did you spot that Jan split off the discussion about forms into another thread ?
[07:42:14] <mamund> that's what i read
[07:42:18] <mikekelly> think you should get involved
[07:42:20] <mikekelly> :)
[07:42:34] <mamund> yeah. still unlikely to participate<g>
[07:42:38] <mikekelly> :P
[07:42:44] <mikekelly> party pooper.
[07:43:04] <mamund> "LOL, he said 'pooper'!"
[07:43:51] <mikekelly> ;)
[07:44:15] <mikekelly> mamund: did you read my post to Alexnader ?
[07:44:30] <mamund> hmm... last night or this AM?
[07:44:40] <mikekelly> this am the latest one I linked to earlier
[07:45:11] <mikekelly> it's nothing particularly new, just interested to know if it was clear or not
[07:45:38] <mamund> ahh
[07:45:44] <mamund> no, actually. just found it here
[07:45:48] <mamund> tl;dnr
[07:45:50] <mamund> >g?
[07:46:34] <mamund> yeah, ok, i see your point
[07:47:03] <mamund> fwiw, i think much of what's been covered on the list in the last fwe days is...
[07:47:10] <mikekelly> a load of horse shit ?
[07:47:34] <mamund> stuff about "how to map a problem domain to HTTP using media types" kind of discussion.
[07:48:13] <mamund> are els sufficient? must all the problem domain details be 'visible'? are forms required?, and so on.
[07:48:23] <mamund> s/els/rels
[07:48:37] <mikekelly> right
[07:48:53] <mikekelly> I think the term 'visible' is not defined well enough 
[07:48:53] <mamund> is it 'best' to use custom media types? only 'generic' ones? etc. etc.
[07:49:42] <mamund> 'visible' in HTTP, 'self-describing' in REST, 'ontology' in SemWeb
[07:49:52] <mamund> all clear as mud
[07:50:11] <mikekelly> right
[07:50:27] <mikekelly> I'm surprised roy's dissertation didn't have to round those out
[07:50:30] <mikekelly> or does it ?
[07:50:31] <mikekelly> :S
[07:50:43] <mamund> not that i recall
[07:51:11] <mamund> honestly, the four "sub-constraints" for uniform interface...
[07:51:34] <mamund> and the things 'around' that (i.e. media types, etc.) are all way under-specified
[07:51:46] Action: mikekelly nods
[07:52:03] <mamund> IMO, there is some big 'hand-wavying' in that area
[07:52:48] <mamund> so, yes, we need some help to clear up 'visible' and 'self-describing' in a way that is helpful to all.
[07:53:02] <mikekelly> I always try and clarify what I'm talking about with those terms and where the 'value' is in whatever point I'm making with it
[07:53:24] <mikekelly> I avoid using that terms for an 'ends' to some means
[07:53:27] <mamund> clarifying is good. what bugs me a bit (at times)...
[07:53:31] <mikekelly> s/that/those
[07:53:34] <mamund> is the varying versions
[07:54:18] <mamund> a consistent (context independent) definition that actually 'helps'
[07:54:22] <mamund> seems illusive
[07:56:32] <mikekelly> right
[07:57:05] <mikekelly> I was most interested in your take on the bit about using link rels 
[07:57:25] <mikekelly> i.e. granularity and control over rels vs rev'ing a media type
[07:58:56] <mamund> yeah, i've been quiet on that subject for a reason...
[07:59:01] <mamund> i've not sorted out my thinking there.
[07:59:20] <mamund> i use this id/name/rel/class design for XHTML quite often
[07:59:32] <mamund> i, personally, can't get by w/ just rel, tho.
[07:59:45] <mamund> but even when i do that...
[08:00:01] <mamund> since i am applying almost always to just HTML, it seems a bit pointless<g>
[08:00:26] <mamund> since HTML uses the 'human' tokens of strings inside <a></a>, etc.
[08:00:48] <mamund> maybe if i actually worke dup some implementations using HAL, i'd get a better picture.
[08:01:01] <mamund> (it's on my list, of course<g>)
[08:02:51] <mamund> git branch
[08:02:58] <mamund> RFOL!
[08:03:19] Action: mamund has too many windows open on hist desktop this AM
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[08:08:55] <mikekelly> !!
[08:10:32] <mikekelly> mamund: so assume a really simple app with an entry point a link rel "http://example.com/rels/foo" from the entry point
[08:14:01] <mamund> ok
[08:15:13] <mikekelly> and that link rel tells the client the important info it needs is the innerhtml of div#content
[08:15:34] <mikekelly> trivial application
[08:15:43] <mikekelly> but there's no requirement for any kind of profile
[08:15:52] <mamund> why is that?
[08:16:01] <mikekelly> the client is following the foo rel - so it's expectations are set
[08:16:09] <mamund> how are they set?
[08:16:15] <mikekelly> by following the foo rel
[08:16:20] <mikekelly> from an entry point
[08:16:24] <mamund> LOL, possibly met, but not set
[08:16:33] <mamund> anyway, continue
[08:17:16] <mikekelly> why not set ?
[08:17:36] <mamund> 'expecting' is not created by following
[08:17:49] <mamund> i have no idea (in this convo) _what_ to expect
[08:17:56] <mamund> that's my Q at this time
[08:18:08] <mamund> i see that rel has some expectations associated
[08:18:11] <mikekelly> well you followed a link w/ rel="http://example.com/rels/foo"
[08:18:38] <mamund> but i don't see where these associations are documented or how that documentation is translated into tangible details in the client code
[08:19:28] <mamund> following can (possibly) _fulfill_ my expections (hey, i expect X, let's follow this link and see if that's what i get')
[08:19:28] <mikekelly> they are documented by correspodnign doc at the rel's URI
[08:19:33] <mamund> aha!
[08:19:39] <mamund> let's see that
[08:19:48] <mamund> why is that not a 'profile' in your mind?
[08:19:54] <mikekelly> *or* you can use tokens and fill a URI template that you're given at the entry point
[08:19:54] <mamund> what is contained there?
[08:20:31] <mikekelly> so the entry point could give you link rel="documentation-base-uri" href="http://example.com/rels/"
[08:20:51] <mikekelly> so you can just use tokens
[08:20:52] <mamund> ok
[08:21:54] <mikekelly> so what's contained there is a description of the target resource and the valid forms of request that can be made to it
[08:22:20] <mamund> yeah, let's see one
[08:22:31] <mikekelly> you want to see API docs ?
[08:22:41] <mamund> this rel document stuff, yeah
[08:23:27] <mikekelly> I don't have a public example because all the stuff I've worked on so far has been cloud computing companies who don't want to share their API design with the public
[08:23:35] <mamund> yeah, understood
[08:23:39] <mikekelly> not how I would do it, btw
[08:23:42] <mikekelly> but there you go
[08:23:50] <mamund> this is a stumbler for me
[08:24:12] <mikekelly> wait I can show you something that's almost there
[08:24:22] <mamund> that'd be cool
[08:24:29] <mamund> doesnt have to be today
[08:24:47] <mamund> my POV here is that what you'll show me is essentially a profile
[08:25:00] <mamund> but i'd like to see it to clear that up
[08:25:16] <mamund> if you'd like to share privately, you can email me
[08:25:26] <mikekelly> http://code.google.com/p/huddle-apis/wiki/Actor
[08:25:40] Action: mamund checks link
[08:25:55] <mikekelly> mamund: yeah I'm not sure there is a huge difference between what you call a profile and what I call rel documentation
[08:26:03] <mamund> !
[08:26:14] <mikekelly> but the difference is that the rel is in the preceding 'state'
[08:26:25] <mamund> i suspect this example is incomplete
[08:26:28] <mikekelly> it's projected by the client, it's not burnt into the resource
[08:26:35] <mamund> since it only describes the rel, not the '
[08:26:44] <mamund> 'expections' assocated w/ that rel
[08:27:02] <mikekelly> well effectively that page is the expectation for a given rel
[08:27:25] <mamund> what page?
[08:27:26] <mikekelly> i.e. it's what you would get if you followed a rel="actor" link
[08:27:32] <mikekelly> that google page
[08:27:41] <mamund> naw, that's meta
[08:27:51] <mamund> unless i _totall_ miss the point
[08:28:31] <mikekelly> yeah I think I'm not talking in terms that make sense
[08:28:35] <mikekelly> :)
[08:29:14] <mamund> anyway, my curiosity here is how i can "code for the rel" the way i currently "code for the media type"
[08:29:17] <mamund> that's all
[08:29:41] <mamund> this is a 'stumbler' for me because i am not yet clear on the details.
[08:29:50] <mamund> not because it think it's not possible/valid, etc.
[08:29:59] <mamund> i just need some tangibles to work w/
[08:30:11] <mamund> to get real crazy on you here...
[08:30:32] <mamund> i _suspect_ you are describing an entirely diff way to code hypermedia;
[08:30:49] <mamund> not via a message format, but just a 'semantic token' set 
[08:31:03] <mamund> this set might apply to all types of message formats
[08:31:11] <mikekelly> well you could do that
[08:31:15] <mamund> i might be way overstating the point here, tho.
[08:31:30] <mikekelly> but it's more complicated, personally I just pick a generic media type and describe the app in terms of that type
[08:31:50] <mamund> anyway, _if_ you have a format-agnostic way to describe problem domain semantics using a coherent set of URI decorators...
[08:31:57] <mamund> i'm very much intrigued<g>
[08:32:09] <mamund> well, see, that's the area i want to learn more about.
[08:32:21] <mamund> " I just pick a generic
[08:32:23] <mamund>                    media type and describe the app in terms of that type"
[08:32:35] <mikekelly> effectively that is what you get but in practice I always end up mixing the documentation up with a particular generic media type
[08:32:45] <mamund> where's the details? docs? how can i duplicate that? how can i code my client for that, etc.
[08:32:55] <mamund> yep - mixing is common
[08:33:12] <mamund> anyway, it's the distillation of this thing you talk about that interests me right now
[08:33:54] <mamund> ok, got some billings to get out the door (i.e. i should really _code_ now)<g>
[08:34:25] <mamund> will background this space for a while as i earn some duckets
[08:34:30] <mikekelly> "if you follow an xyz relation you will find a resource with <load of properties> and <various other link relations> and <other embedded resources>"
[08:34:47] <mikekelly> oh look each of those things has a place in HAL
[08:34:48] <mikekelly> :)
[08:35:29] <mamund> expand the quote into something that allows me to code my client and i'm cookin'
[08:36:11] <mikekelly> if it's terms of hal that's pretty trivial right ?
[08:36:39] <mikekelly> the properties are just the bits of the representation that are not links or embedded resources..
[08:36:56] <mikekelly> i.e. it's just an xml or json document
[08:37:39] <mamund> here's a suggestion (my, i'm pushy today...)
[08:37:53] <mikekelly> the maze thing ?
[08:38:04] <mamund> whip up a 'trivial' app (server) that emits HAL
[08:38:14] <mamund> then send me the 'docs' for creating a client for that server
[08:38:23] <mikekelly> alright
[08:38:40] <mamund> that will force me to write a client using HAL and i bet that clears the cobwebs
[08:38:55] <mamund> (or gives me a chance to badger you w/ inane Qs!)
[08:42:22] <mikekelly> sounds awesome :D
[08:42:46] <mamund> kewl
[08:42:57] <whartung> o/
[08:43:03] <mamund> btw, i tried out c9/vim last night...
[08:43:19] <mamund> 10dd worked for me in Chromium
[08:43:41] <mamund> i could cut a block, move, then 'p' it in the new location
[08:44:02] <mamund> i didn't try _named_ blocks, tho
[08:45:17] <mamund> whartung: \o
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[15:06:15] Action: mamund is done now; peace-out!
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[19:03:45] <twilliams> geez... where is bigbluehat when i need 'em?
[19:04:20] <twilliams> good job, mikekelly: btw, for stayin on message:)
[19:06:27] <twilliams> that was, https://twitter.com/#!/mikekelly85/status/154503526104563712 btw:)
[19:06:42] <twilliams> love you guys, happy new year too!
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[00:00:00] --- Thu Jan  5 2012