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[09:08:36] Action: steveklabnik waves hello to everyone
[09:09:19] <mikekelly> hi there
[09:09:46] <steveklabnik> how's the last day of the year?
[09:09:57] <mikekelly> steveklabnik: what do you think about collection/item blocks in rails controllers?
[09:10:23] <steveklabnik> collection/item blocks?
[09:10:32] <steveklabnik> i'm not 100% sure what you're referring to
[09:10:40] <mikekelly> collection { def get;...;end; def post;...;end }
[09:10:49] <mikekelly> item { def get;...;end; def post;...;end }
[09:11:16] <steveklabnik> you're suggesting a new api?
[09:11:21] <steveklabnik> i'm not famillair with that.
[09:11:38] <mikekelly> nothing concrete just trying to figure out how all this patch stuff is going to fit in
[09:11:43] <steveklabnik> ahhh
[09:12:01] <steveklabnik> honestly. they really just want a action that maps to the verb.
[09:12:08] <mikekelly> right
[09:12:11] <mikekelly> that's what I meant
[09:12:30] <mikekelly> if you have a collection and item block you can still have CRUD for set of resources in one controller
[09:12:49] <mikekelly> but map to HTTP verbs for collection and item routes
[09:13:20] <steveklabnik> yeah, i'm really down on rails at the moment. heh.
[09:13:26] <mikekelly> :)
[09:13:40] <steveklabnik> did you happen to catch my blog post and the resulting shitstorm?
[09:13:49] <mikekelly> which one the cukes one ?
[09:13:54] <steveklabnik> naw, the one yesterday
[09:14:02] <steveklabnik> http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2011-12-30-active-record-considered-harmful
[09:14:10] <mikekelly> ruh roh
[09:14:13] <steveklabnik> :)
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[09:14:39] <steveklabnik> so yeah, one of the assertions that i make is that i think we're reaching the design limits of MVC.
[09:14:47] <steveklabnik> so i've been trying to think about what to do instead
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[09:15:43] <mikekelly> steveklabnik: I've worked on a couple of frameworks basically built from rack components
[09:15:57] <mikekelly> the router just routes one URI pattern to a resource handler
[09:16:21] <mikekelly> a resource handler just takes a rack request and dispatches to the corresponding method
[09:16:49] <mikekelly> only 'issue' with that is (from a rails pov) you don't have collection and items handled in the same 'controller' (i.e. resource handler)
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[09:17:44] <stevekla1nik> zomg internet screwup
[09:17:49] <mikekelly> :(
[09:17:51] <stevekla1nik> I missed any reaction of yours, mikekelly 
[09:17:53] <stevekla1nik> if any
[09:18:10] <mikekelly> I've worked on a couple of frameworks basically built from rack components
[09:18:10] <mikekelly> mikekelly
[09:18:11] <mikekelly> the router just routes one URI pattern to a resource handler
[09:18:13] <mikekelly> mikekelly
[09:18:15] <mikekelly> a resource handler just takes a rack request and dispatches to the corresponding method
[09:18:17] <mikekelly> 17:16 mikekelly
[09:18:19] <mikekelly> only 'issue' with that is (from a rails pov) you don't have collection and items handled in the same 'controller' (i.e. resource handler)
[09:18:30] <stevekla1nik> have you seen webmachine
[09:18:48] <mikekelly> well I've seen the overview but I haven't actually used it
[09:19:11] <stevekla1nik> same.
[09:19:28] <mikekelly> I like rack as a model
[09:19:45] <mikekelly> it's layered, so it's HTTP'ish
[09:19:51] <stevekla1nik> yeah.
[09:19:56] <stevekla1nik> rack is also reaching the limits
[09:19:59] <stevekla1nik> rack 2.0 will be different.
[09:20:09] <mikekelly> really the only issue with MVC is C shoudl really be R for resource
[09:20:22] <mikekelly> and V possibly representation
[09:20:26] <mikekelly> but basically MVC is fine
[09:20:36] <stevekla1nik> i'm not sure it maps to http well
[09:21:04] <mikekelly> well that's what I mean - if you swap controller for resource and view for representation
[09:21:07] <mikekelly> you're pretty much there
[09:21:21] <mikekelly> and it's possible to build a framework which treats them both that way
[09:21:43] <mikekelly> I hacked Zend Framework (for PHP) to work that way, and people seemed to dig it
[09:22:13] <stevekla1nik> i used zend long ago
[09:22:18] <mikekelly> horrible framework
[09:22:21] <stevekla1nik> heh
[09:23:26] <mikekelly> but basically if you just have one controller per URL pattern
[09:23:35] <mikekelly> and your controller 'actions' just map to HTTP verbs
[09:23:44] <stevekla1nik> hmmm
[09:23:49] <mikekelly> you're basically there
[09:24:18] <mikekelly> but that would blow rails people's minds cos now you have 2 diff controllers for /widgets and /widgets/:id
[09:24:34] Action: stevekla1nik nods
[09:24:43] <mikekelly> but you could implement a collection controller
[09:24:53] <mikekelly> and have collection/item blocks within that
[09:25:36] <mikekelly> and your routing dsl would just have "collection" instead of rail's "resources"
[09:26:30] <mikekelly> but for me it's also about how the framework delegates under the hood - basically I believe the router should just figure out the controller and then pass the rack request along
[09:26:49] <mikekelly> I don't think it should delegate to the action
[09:27:23] <stevekla1nik> mmm
[09:27:28] <stevekla1nik> ... have you seen all this DCI stuff?
[09:27:32] <mikekelly> ?
[09:27:50] <stevekla1nik> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data,_context_and_interaction
[09:29:19] <mikekelly> nope, looks intriguing 
[09:29:28] <stevekla1nik> there are some dudes that are trying to bring it to rails hard.
[09:29:38] <stevekla1nik> http://andrzejonsoftware.blogspot.com/2011/02/dci-and-rails.html
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[09:35:44] <mikekelly> that's related to keeping big apps clean then?
[09:35:59] <stevekla1nik> yeah.
[09:36:20] <stevekla1nik> i met with the dude who's writing the 'dci on rails' book last night. he says it's helped his legacy code soooo much.
[09:36:23] <stevekla1nik> i'm not totally sold yet.
[09:40:37] <mikekelly> I do find it kind of bizarre that rails is meant to be the defacto HTTP-slash-REST framework, but it doesn't really have a concrete concept of a resource further than the language of the routing DSL
[09:41:55] <mikekelly> and we have controller with actions that handle requests for specific methods.. but the naming conventions for those actions don't correspond to the methods they're mapped with
[09:42:53] <mikekelly> everything else with rails I'm pretty much down with - I tend to strip out active record immediately anyway
[09:43:30] <mikekelly> to be fair that is a fairly big part of rails.. ¬_¬
[09:45:09] <fu-manchu> mikekelly: sounds like you're ready for CherryPy :)
[09:45:13] <mikekelly> I spent a while worrying about the imperfections of rails from REST/HTTP perspective but then managed to convince myself that ignoring my pedantry was worth it considering there was a tonne of benefits to working with rails
[09:45:25] <stevekla1nik> fu-manchu: or sinatra. ;)
[09:45:31] <mikekelly> fu-manchu: or padrino or sinatra
[09:45:39] <stevekla1nik> mikekelly: since it's the poster child, changin it is worth it.
[09:46:16] <mikekelly> well I'd be happy to try and point out where it diverges from HTTP and how you could fix it
[09:46:50] <mikekelly> but tbh the fixes don't really add much they just clean everything up a bit and potentially break a load of stuff
[09:47:19] <mikekelly> I did try and bring up the routing stuff a while ago before rails 3 got released
[09:47:27] <mikekelly> it didn't go down very well.
[09:48:25] <stevekla1nik> heh.
[09:48:29] <stevekla1nik> it happens.
[09:48:57] <mikekelly> stevekla1nik: pretty funny how hard it's going to be to make full PUT work as expected with rails
[09:49:12] <mikekelly> and how weird and confusing the routing is going to end up
[09:49:44] <mikekelly> wrt. that Pull request the other day I mean
[09:52:09] <mikekelly> I can see a train wreck in the distance there
[09:52:46] <stevekla1nik> yeah.
[09:52:49] <stevekla1nik> it won't end that well
[09:52:54] <stevekla1nik> luckily.... my talks are getting accepted
[09:53:04] <stevekla1nik> i'm doing at least two conference talks this spring about 'real rest'
[09:53:08] <stevekla1nik> based off of that twilio talk.
[09:53:18] <stevekla1nik> so i'll be soliciting feedback from this room, of course. :)
[09:53:30] <mikekelly> sweet.
[09:53:44] <mikekelly> I really need to finish off a first pass at this template DSL for HAL 
[09:54:48] <mikekelly> checked out that roar gem this week.. thought about using the presenter pattern instead
[09:54:55] <mikekelly> not sure atm
[09:57:04] <stevekla1nik> yeah.
[09:57:08] <stevekla1nik> have you seen draper?
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[00:00:00] --- Sun Jan  1 2012