#rest on irc.freenode.net 2011-12-30 (txt)

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[02:42] <mikekelly> wtf...
[02:42] <mikekelly> https://twitter.com/#!/kendall/status/152584959348064257
[02:43] <mikekelly> that is an extraordinary pov.
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[05:17] <mikekelly> mamund: I see you reacted to that crazy tweet from kendall :)
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[06:28] mamund slips in
[06:28] <mamund> mikekelly: kendall is a h00t.
[06:29] <mikekelly> I think he's serious though
[06:29] <mamund> i thought of publicly whacking him w/ a trout, but let it drop
[06:29] <mamund> he's serious like hemroids, IMO
[06:29] <mikekelly> lol.
[06:30] <mamund> i mean, what can be said about such a statement "...god & prophet..."?
[06:30] <mamund> sheesh
[06:30] <mikekelly> I'm not really sure where dret was going with his tweet either though, to be fair
[06:30] <mamund> like erik before him, i ack'd his tweet, but that's about all i'm intersted in doing in 140 chars
[06:31] <mikekelly> people refer to the dissertation because that's the definition of the subject matter
[06:31] <mamund> well, the last week has gotten a bit testy on the list, but that's nothing very new, IMO
[06:31] <mikekelly> there are stuff to get narked about on that list though
[06:32] <mikekelly> and that's people taking condescending attitudes and insisting they 'know' stuff
[06:32] <mamund> zackly
[06:32] <mamund> hence my ref to "thinking" in my response to kendall
[06:33] <mikekelly> and also resorting to internal 'buzz words' like "visibility" and "self-descriptiveness" in order to try and 'win' an argument instead of having a rational discussion about something
[06:33] <mamund> those who actually _question_ the assumptions, challenge the stasis...
[06:33] <mamund> those ppl get props from me.
[06:33] <mikekelly> and *another* thing that religious people do.. which is to deliberately ignore points because you have no retort
[06:33] <mikekelly> which Jan has done several times now on this media type thread :|
[06:33] <mamund> those who (try to) parrot the diss, just echo common meme, etc. i have little time for
[06:34] <mikekelly> it wouldn't bother me so much if his line of argument didn't force me to keep repeating myself in various different ways just to try to get him to address the point I'm making
[06:34] <mikekelly> Roy's also done that twice to me now on the partial PUT issue
[06:34] <mamund> well, some folks are stuck in various places along the way<g>
[06:34] <mamund> it happesn to all of us
[06:35] <mikekelly> oh
[06:35] <mikekelly> and 'coupling'
[06:35] <mikekelly> that's another good buzzword I forgot
[06:35] <mamund> i've done it, too<g>
[06:35] <mamund> LOL
[06:35] <mikekelly> did you see the latest on that media type thread ?
[06:35] <mamund> one of my favs since it has a nice double-entenrde aspect
[06:35] <mikekelly> :)
[06:36] <mikekelly> apparently media types somehow magically prevent automated agents from being 'coupled' to an application
[06:36] <mamund> i've pretty much tuned out of these media type threads for now
[06:36] <mikekelly> nobody seems very clear on what that means or how it actually is any differnet in practice
[06:36] <mamund> too much repitition and circular argument for me
[06:37] <mikekelly> but apparently it is 'obvious' and 'a constraint of REST'
[06:37] <mikekelly> scrub that.
[06:37] <mikekelly> and _explicit_ constraint of RESt
[06:37] <mamund> i must say that very few folks in that discussion....
[06:37] <mamund> have actually designed media types and are actively trying to build apps w/ them.
[06:37] mamund thinks you know to whom i am refering<g>
[06:39] <mikekelly> yea
[06:39] <mamund> :)
[06:40] <mikekelly> to be fair though these discussions are so esoteric I don't think doing it in practice makes you untouchable
[06:40] <mikekelly> but yeah, it definitely helps.
[06:40] <mamund> nok, not untouchable, but from my POV...
[06:40] <mikekelly> I just hate people expressing their own extrapolations beyond what the diss actually says as 'fact'
[06:40] <mamund> if you have acutally done this work, if you are speaking from _actual_ experience, it makes a diff
[06:41] <mamund> Genchi Genbutsu
[06:41] <mamund> you heard this before?
[06:41] <mikekelly> I've never said creating domain-specific media types is 'not RESTful' - I just think it's sub-optimal
[06:41] <mamund> sure
[06:41] <mikekelly> no haven't heard
[06:41] <mamund> it's part of the whole Toyota Way
[06:42] <mamund> lots of that stuff has been co-opted by the "Agile" movement
[06:42] <mikekelly> are those the dudes with Kaizen and stuff like that ?
[06:42] <mamund> yep
[06:42] <mikekelly> cool :)
[06:42] <mamund> Genchi Genbutsu = "go see for yourself"
[06:42] <mamund> basically, STFU until you've actually tried it, ok?
[06:42] <mamund> :)
[06:42] <mikekelly> ha, well :)
[06:43] <mamund> this one, btw do not often come up in Agile discussions, AFAICT
[06:43] <mikekelly> I don't think there's enough thought over the _design_ consideration wrt media types
[06:43] <mamund> zackly
[06:44] <mikekelly> i.e. the art of constraint and the subtle mastery of coaxing your system _over time_
[06:44] <mamund> true
[06:44] <mikekelly> coaxing is the best word I can find right now
[06:44] <mamund> also, i don't think folks spend enough time thinking about the _usability_ of a media type design
[06:44] <mikekelly> better than herding which was what I used to use sometimes
[06:45] <mamund> :)
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[06:45] <mamund> i like the "herd" visual, tho
[06:45] <mikekelly> I don't like the implication of control
[06:45] <mamund> ppl don't consider that HTML is ubiquituos in large part because it has a "high usability quotient"
[06:45] mamund is making sh*t up now!
[06:46] <mikekelly> as a server you are really at the mercy of the average client's stupidity
[06:46] <mikekelly> no that's not made up that's spot on
[06:46] <mamund> XHTML 2.0 was a brilliant design that had a terrible usability value
[06:46] <mikekelly> exact reason I didn't include templated writes in HAL and left it for a seperate extended type
[06:46] <mamund> i've been pouring over usability stuff in the last several months trying to learn more about that stuff.
[06:47] <mamund> yes, you can see that HAL has had a very good uptake because many see it as easily grok-able and can map their domains to id fairly quickly
[06:47] <mikekelly> + it doesn't cofuse people by trying to get them to think about resources as collections/items
[06:47] <mikekelly> ¬_¬
[06:48] <mamund> yep
[06:48] <mamund> and, IMO, you're right to resist complications lkike NS, etc.
[06:48] <mikekelly> yeah, I know it upsets a lot of enterprisey people though
[06:48] <mamund> you're fine
[06:49] <mikekelly> but Jan said this today (and I almost quoted alan watts at him in response):
[06:51] <mikekelly> Glenn: "where is the harm if it says in the link rel documentation this is how the data will look?" Jan: "Coupling. The server might change and send something different than you expect."
[06:51] <mikekelly> in the end I just pointed out that is exactly what application evolution is dependent on being possible
[06:52] <mikekelly> the watts quote I wanted to respond with was: "It must be obvious... that there is a contradiction in wanting to be perfectly secure in a universe whose very nature is momentariness and fluidity."
[06:53] <mikekelly> but for me "keeping clients on their toes" is a vitally important part of herding clients
[06:54] <mamund> :)
[06:54] <mikekelly> seriously though, the more guarantees I make them - the more risky change becomes
[06:54] <mamund> well, i'll confess that i'm not yet clearly on board w/ you regarding the use of rel as referential for responses.
[06:54] <mamund> i groked most o fyoiur POV yesterday...
[06:54] <mamund> but still need time to srt things out
[06:54] <mamund> however, i understand your POV; esp. WRT m2m.
[06:55] <mamund> big thing tho...
[06:55] <mikekelly> in info security terms they talk about 'reducing the attack surface' of your system - this is kind of a similar idea
[06:55] <mamund> i am not interested in provding wildly varying commentary to the list while i am still thinking things through
[06:56] <mamund> that's why i've styed quiet for the most part on that stuff
[06:56] <mamund> just taking me some time<g>
[06:56] <mamund> ok, i need to do some billing work today to close out my year on a "good note"<g>
[06:56] <mikekelly> every assertion a client makes about a given representation and its resource is temporal
[06:57] <mamund> +1
[06:57] <mikekelly> and circumstantial
[06:57] <mamund> +0 (cuz i'm not sure<g>)
[06:57] <mamund> ok, backgrounding this channel for a while.
[06:58] <mamund> peace-out!
[06:58] <mikekelly> caio
[06:58] <mikekelly> enjoy!
[06:58] mamund puts his head down and starts typing
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[12:59] <mikekelly> well the media type meme thread ran out of steam fast
[13:10] <mamund> ok, that's a wrap for me
[13:10] <mamund> my last billing work done for the year, and reports out the door
[13:10] <mamund> been quite a 2011 here in rest-crazy-ville...
[13:11] <mamund> enjoyed every minute, too
[13:11] <mamund> peace-out, ya'll and best of luck in the next go-round!
[13:11] mamund saddles up and rides off into the new year
[13:17] <mikekelly> all the best mamund :)
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[15:36] <theBrettman> how do I know if my server supports rest?
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[16:54] <theBrettman> anyone on here?
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[00:00] --- Sat Dec 31 2011