[00:02:04] ivanfi (~ivanfi@62.159.77.167) joined #rest. [00:17:14] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@203-206-171-38.perm.iinet.net.au) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [00:18:31] SvenDowideit (~SvenDowid@203-206-171-38.perm.iinet.net.au) joined #rest. [00:50:37] tomayac_ (~tomayac@213.61.101.1) left irc: Quit: tomayac_ [01:40:38] mr_yall (~mryall@host86-128-59-168.range86-128.btcentralplus.com) joined #rest. [02:31:42] mephju (~mephju@dslb-094-222-006-110.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest. [04:17:06] mephju_ (~mephju@dslb-094-222-006-110.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest. [04:17:07] mephju_ (~mephju@dslb-094-222-006-110.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Client Quit [05:13:58] Wombert (~Wombert@84.233.128.147) joined #rest. [05:14:11] Wombert (~Wombert@84.233.128.147) left irc: Client Quit [05:15:35] Wombert (~Wombert@84.233.128.147) joined #rest. [05:25:21] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@nmd.sbx08595.greensc.wayport.net) joined #rest. [06:20:05] sbanwart (~sbanwart@66.6.175.18) joined #rest. [06:22:49] grove (~grove@aggw006.cappelendamm.no) left irc: Quit: grove [06:25:26] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [06:54:33] twilliams (3f7d04d2@apache/committer/twilliams) joined #rest. [06:56:34] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) joined #rest. [06:57:05] bigbluehat you around? [06:58:20] twilliams: as much as ever :) [06:58:27] how's trick twilliams? [06:59:03] nice! is the westin poinsett or the hyatt regency in that same downtown area where we had lunch/dinner/beers at restfest? [06:59:18] if so, is either one a better location than the other? [06:59:41] Action: mamund slips in [06:59:58] they're both great [07:00:00] you're late mamund [07:00:03] I like the Westin 'cause it's old :) [07:00:22] Hyatt Regency is (i believe) the one at the opposite end of downtown [07:00:23] Wombert stayed there, iirc [07:01:25] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) joined #rest. [07:01:39] both of those are just a few blocks of each other and both on Main St. [07:01:47] twilliams: I'm guessing this means your coming to town? :) [07:04:47] twilliams (3f7d04d2@apache/committer/twilliams) left irc: Ping timeout: 265 seconds [07:06:53] twilliams (3f7d04d2@apache/committer/twilliams) joined #rest. [07:07:10] weird, got booted:( [07:07:29] yeah, we're driving to atlanta and thought we'd take a break down there since i've been talking it up since last restfest:) [07:07:51] prolly just long enough for dinner and stroll downtown but it's something [07:08:08] :D [07:08:14] yeah, man [07:08:21] when will you be wondering through? [07:08:26] happy to make food suggestions [07:08:35] and find you stuff to see while here [07:11:52] it looks like we'll get there sometime around 2:30-3pm [07:12:19] recommendations much appreciated:) [07:13:42] we have two kids 7 and 5 if that effects your recommendations:) [07:13:57] and i like really hoppy craft IPAs :) [07:16:29] DracoBlue (~Adium@dslb-088-075-066-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #rest. [07:16:34] DracoBlue (~Adium@dslb-088-075-066-254.pools.arcor-ip.net) left #rest. [07:17:28] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [07:23:15] and if you're around, i'll buy you a beer in the evening hours for your trouble:) [07:37:01] grove (~grove@193.201.9.46.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [07:46:20] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) left irc: Quit: Leaving... [07:58:43] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) joined #rest. [08:12:13] d (~dd@c-174-60-52-96.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #rest. [08:12:39] Nick change: d -> Guest17455 [08:15:04] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) joined #rest. [08:22:06] Guest17455 (~dd@c-174-60-52-96.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [08:29:59] so, say I have an issue tracker in which I can create users, issues, comment on issues etc [08:30:31] and I'd like to create a REST-ful architecture for all of these operations [08:31:05] would it be correct to say that each of those operations is a "REST-ful application"? each of them has a set of interactions between a server and a client [08:31:38] the architecture describe common traits between the operations [08:32:03] ivanfi (~ivanfi@62.159.77.167) left #rest. [08:34:29] grove (~grove@193.201.9.46.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Quit: grove [08:40:14] trygvis: sure. You ahve the Users application, the issues application, and perhaps an independent commentary application. [08:41:16] right. I was wondering if it made sense from a REST perspective and a english perspective :) [08:41:39] sure [08:41:46] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@nmd.sbx08595.greensc.wayport.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving. [08:41:56] great, thanks [08:41:58] I mean, consider for example the stuff I'm working on. [08:42:58] I'm working on a single sign on server. One of its roles will be to manage all of the users. That means that applicatiosn that integrate with the SSO server can delegate that task to it and no longer have to worry about password management, policies, etc. [08:43:13] Also consider another thing I'm playing with at home [08:43:19] and that's an image asset server [08:43:52] It's role is to handle upload, delivery, sizing and reformatting of images. That's all it will do. [08:44:13] Something that is naturally a part of a lot of applications, if only for sending down static images. [08:44:55] but this lets the applcation delegate that entire problem, including handling the HTTP aspects as well as offering thumbnails and image CRUD, etc. LAter it can handle issues such as throttling and quotas. [08:45:18] an ostensibly simply problem but with lots of interesting deeper issues when you really look at the problem. [08:45:24] So, make it a standalone server. [08:45:33] that's readily integrated [08:46:06] are you a java guy? [08:46:14] yes [08:46:15] Action: mamund jumps in... [08:46:42] do you know/use maven? [08:46:59] no, but we're likely going to be migrating to it soon. [08:47:06] great :) [08:47:07] trygvis: fwiw, i'd express a "service" (issue tracking, etc.) as a media type. [08:47:27] either custom or apl;ly domain specs to existing type (XHTML, etc.) [08:47:29] mamund: and here I was going to use collection+json! [08:47:34] ha! [08:47:36] do it! [08:47:41] anyway... [08:47:48] if you do that (express the app domain in a media type) [08:47:58] then you can implement servers and clients in many ways. [08:48:02] I think I can do this without using any custom media types [08:48:09] oh yes, you could [08:48:14] but the point is this... [08:48:33] if you do it as a media type, you free youself quite a bit [08:48:49] you set yourself up for a "distributed" implementation (if that's what you want) [08:49:23] "participating" in your services is nothgin more than crafting a message in the media type and shipping off to some server that undersatnd that tyhpe [08:49:36] you can integrate that into _any_ existing app. [08:50:05] it can be a simple as crafting an HTML.FORM@method="post" [08:50:08] true, but I'm hoping that implementors can leverage existing libraries (like atom parsers) [08:50:16] sure - that's fine. [08:50:19] and html tools like mechanize [08:50:28] let implementors do any of that [08:50:53] but, my advices is to express the share understanding of the problem domain as a coherent media type design. [08:51:00] right [08:51:18] then implementors (clients and servers) are free to do anything they like. [08:51:30] even free to write their own storage (or share sotragte maong each other, etc.) [08:51:33] I'm hoping that the textual documentation will be enough [08:51:50] of course, i'd say the same to whartung. [08:52:09] all those things SSO, image services, etc. are app domains that could be xpressed as media types. [08:52:24] took me an hour to re-write dropbox API as a media type [08:52:43] spent about two hours mapping googles new BigQuery RPC as a media type [08:53:21] can you link to how you converted drop box to a media type as an example of the processd? [08:53:42] whartung: i'll publish a blog post on this next week,. [08:53:47] k [08:53:54] got caught up w/ proffing the book and dopped the ball. [08:54:05] the doc is done, explanations needed, tho. [08:54:14] Action: mamund cheks is _dropbox_ folder for the doc [08:55:37] whartung: here's teh raw file: [08:55:40] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3551384/dropbox-api.html [08:55:56] view source and skip the CSS/JS sweeteners [08:56:09] the markiup is all there (except oauth) [08:56:17] Action: mamund hatezezx oauth [08:56:54] oauth 1 or oauth 2 mamund [08:59:03] so, truly, mamund, that's pretty much what I envisioned an HTML style media type to look like. mikekelly would chafe at the forms, but it's pretty much the entire api avaiable at the root of the state graph [08:59:14] yep [09:00:04] if you wanted to do this in HAL, you'd pull the form, write docs for the each link rel that outline the params and use the docs to hard-code clients to "know" the state transition arguments for each rel. [09:00:27] just shifting the burden from the representation into the code. [09:00:52] sure [09:03:41] anyway, you see how it works; not rocket science. [09:04:24] i'm in a place where this re-write stuff is easy; now i'm focusing on how that affects the client coding. [09:04:39] i.e. what code can i get rid of when i use media types w/ affordances? [09:05:00] what code do i need to mod/add to recognize/parse/activate affordances? [09:05:06] etc. [09:05:13] it's an interacive process for me right now. [09:05:35] if i'm not careful, it will turn into another book [09:05:37] "affordance"? That seems like a big word. [09:05:40] LOL [09:05:43] yeah it is [09:06:07] made up in the 70s by a psychologiest doing work on visual perception. [09:06:10] james gibson [09:06:23] in the 80/90s donald norman picked it up [09:06:37] I have afordexplorer [09:06:39] and used it as a basis for teaching "usability" [09:06:45] LOL [09:07:01] i have AFordPOS [09:10:45] whartung: but, back to the maven thing. you will notice soon that the maven repository is very .. CRUD like [09:10:58] Oh I'm sure it is [09:11:05] it's a simple structure [09:11:53] yes, it's very simple. however, most of the server applications behind it doesn't improve it at all (even if they could with the current interface) [09:11:55] We have a fellow here who has converting a legacy project to maven as one of this tasks over the next couple weeks. Part of that process will be setting up a local repo for Maven. [09:12:39] The global repo of maven is on my love/hate list. I won't have us working with a global repo here. [09:12:42] he'll probably install nexus, artifactory or archiva [09:12:51] ok [09:13:04] nexus seems to be the most popular these days [09:13:46] I was hoping to write an architechture that would improve stuff a bit [09:14:02] I used to be a core maven developer so I have some insights on how stuff work [09:14:55] ah ok [09:15:14] So I can blame you for the fact taht M1 doesn't work with M2 which doesn't work with M3? (Another peeve...) [09:15:29] not really, nobody speaks of Maven 1 [09:15:34] and M2 does work with M3 :) [09:15:36] (at least M3 uses an M2 local repo...) [09:15:48] M3 doesn't work with M2. [09:16:28] it should, except if you use the silly bits of maven 2 [09:16:53] I've use Ant forever. My primary reason to move to maven is that its the de facto "portable" project format that works with all of the IDEs. [09:17:15] but you can only blame me for maven 2, I fell off way before maven 3 came in [09:17:24] well, I have mvn and mvn3 on my machine for a reason, either M2 can't read an M3 file or vice a versa [09:17:40] file as in pom.xml? [09:17:44] yea [09:18:09] that really should work, but that's a topic for #maven on irc.codehaus.org [09:18:12] basically, I don't understand why there even IS an "M3", let me put it that way. [09:18:50] but, yea, I'm not versed well enough it save that it constantly flumoxes me, and the spool up in terms of getting to work with it seem high to me. [09:19:01] m3 is just marketing versioning, there are hardly any new concepts in maven 3. just a better/faster/smarter implementation of existing stuff [09:19:53] ok, jus tsaynig whatever they did was incompatible with old stuff...and that means I now have to ask "which maven" for the next 5 years. [09:20:02] and that's insane [09:20:33] it shouldn't be as bad as that, but there has been breakages [09:20:45] it's a customer service thing. [09:20:52] yep [09:21:20] the whole reason why I started on this was that the client has started on writing tools on top of these repositories to move artifacts from the local repository to a "production" repository (which reside on the production network) [09:21:33] ok [09:21:37] we also need easier tools to find the latest snapshot and stuff [09:21:50] yea, I'm curious how we'll have to manage some stuff here also. [09:22:58] nexus has some tools to "promote" artifacts between repositories (nexus handles a set of repositories natively) [09:23:06] but that's just within a single nexus instance [09:23:24] the problem we'll have is a central shared library that all of our projects use. [09:24:01] I'm not quite sure how to handle that artifact along with project branches, how to do all the versioning etc of it. [09:25:01] KevBurnsJr (~kevburnsj@c-76-126-10-63.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #rest. [09:26:39] KevBurnsJr (~kevburnsj@c-76-126-10-63.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Client Quit [09:31:02] Wombert (~Wombert@84.233.128.147) left irc: Quit: Wombert [09:59:30] KevBurnsJr (~KevBurnsJ@50.0.103.39) joined #rest. [10:01:10] mamund: but if every application always use its own media type, why bother creating generic stuff like atom and collection+json? [10:23:49] bigbluehat (~bigblueha@adsl-98-71-175-110.gsp.bellsouth.net) joined #rest. [10:37:00] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [10:39:41] Action: mamund was away [10:39:48] tryg\ [10:39:57] trygvis: LOL, very trye [10:40:13] i don't advocate everyone creating their own custom formats. [10:40:45] fwiw, when i say "design a media type" i also mean code up the @id, @name, @rel, @class details that apply app domain semantics to XHTML [10:41:03] in fact, this is really what you do when you use collection+json. [10:41:21] you code up the app domain semantics as "name", and "rel" [10:43:32] twilliams (3f7d04d2@apache/committer/twilliams) left irc: Quit: Page closed [10:45:30] grove (~grove@193.201.9.46.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [10:46:18] aha, ok. then I think we're very much aligned [10:46:22] :) [10:46:33] so, for me "design" does not === "create-a-new-format" [10:46:51] but now it's beer o'clock here, I'll be back in not too long [10:46:55] sigh [10:46:59] wish that were true here [10:47:07] 13:45 here [10:47:14] all you got to do is move over ;) [10:47:22] don't get me started [10:47:33] of course monday morning will come earlier [10:47:47] i passed up the chance to move to sweden a while back [10:47:56] regretting it now. [10:48:19] sweden is great [10:48:25] (so is finland also) [10:48:49] I would be ready to move to sweden, but I have two kids and wife isn't ready with her studies.. [10:49:01] and no one has offered me a job yet :D [10:50:29] LOL [10:50:35] swden is wonderful, norway, too. [10:51:01] i had kids in school at the time and we decided it would be "too disruptive" to move. [10:51:21] but now, in hindsight, i think we would have enhoyed the move quite a bit [10:51:35] anyway, that's the way life is; full of unmade choices [10:52:00] i will hoist my glass of water to trygvis! [10:52:11] (and pretend it's a beer) [11:02:16] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) joined #rest. [11:21:38] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) left irc: Quit: and away [11:47:59] dreinull (dreieins@217.18.70.225) joined #rest. [12:54:26] did someone say beer? ;) [12:54:47] hear hear trygvis. [13:46:13] Wombert (~Wombert@89.204.137.85) joined #rest. 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[15:16:17] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) left irc: Client Quit [15:38:09] KevBurnsJr (~KevBurnsJ@50.0.103.39) joined #rest. [15:43:13] sbanwart (~sbanwart@66.6.175.18) left irc: Read error: Operation timed out [15:57:56] grove_ (~grove@193.201.9.46.customer.cdi.no) joined #rest. [16:00:13] grove (~grove@aggw006.cappelendamm.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [16:02:07] grove_ (~grove@193.201.9.46.customer.cdi.no) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds [16:16:48] mamund: well, hey, yo. shibby! [16:22:18] Wombert (~Wombert@dslb-088-065-199-130.pools.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Quit: Wombert [17:17:12] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) joined #rest. [17:22:09] gchristensen (~gchristen@unaffiliated/grahamc) left irc: Quit: Leaving... [17:26:12] sbanwart (~sbanwart@99-177-126-136.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) joined #rest. 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