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[08:32] <darrelmiller> Does anyone have any experience in using XHR to retrieve HTML fragments and then merge that into the current page?
[08:45] <mamund> a bit of exp, what's up?
[08:45] <darrelmiller> I was just wondering if it was possible or whether XHR had some funky objection to retreiving HTML.
[08:46] <darrelmiller> I've been thinking about how to make single page JS apps actually work with a hypermedia API.
[08:48] <darrelmiller> If I can include a LE link in my HAL document to pull in the display HTML as an XHR request and update the current page then I think I could pull it off.
[08:59] <mamund> darrelmiller: sorry, was away
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[09:00] <mamund> i've pulled HTML via XHR before and don't recall any problems.
[09:06] <mamund> darrelmiller: [@mamund(+i)] [2:freenode/#rest(+nt)] [Act: 1]
[09:06] <mamund> [#rest]
[09:06] <mamund> oops
[09:06] <mamund> darrelmiller: http://www.sitepoint.com/quick-tip-xmlhttprequest-and-innerhtml/
[09:07] <mamund> that's better
[09:10] <darrelmiller> thx
[09:11] <darrelmiller> wow, from 2004. That's a blast from the past.
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[09:22] <mamund> LOL
[09:22] <mamund> proly about when i was doing that, too<g>
[09:22] <mamund> LOL
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[09:40] <veganista> im creating an API that should only be used via SSL, what error code is best to return when access via non ssl
[09:41] <trygvis> an easy way is to always redirect the agent to the https URL
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[10:54] <mamund> trygvis: this wors for GET, but not for POST. IOW, attempting to POST to http://... when only https://... is allowed.
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[10:55] <mamund> in that case, i ussualy return 403 (Forbidden) whenever possible.
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[11:17] <mrryanjohnston_> let's say i have three resources: cats, dogs, birds. I want to be able to search on these resources. So something like http://server/cats?name=sadie. If I wanted to search the name 'sadie' on birds, cats, AND dogs, but I didn't want to make three separate calls to the cats, dogs, and birds resource, what is the most restful way I could do this?
[11:17] <mrryanjohnston_> well, ok, maybe animals?name=sadie
[11:17] <mrryanjohnston_> sorry, le tme rephrase
[11:18] <mrryanjohnston_> the 3 resources involve 3 different types of entities. person, team, company, let's say.
[11:18] <mrryanjohnston_> And I wanted to search for a string of 'fred', where it would pull up people with the name 'fred,' the team with 'fred's team', and the company 'freddy mac'
[11:19] <mrryanjohnston_> what would be the best way to respresent this search in a rest resource by only making one call
[11:33] <mamund> mrryanjohnston_: if you need an operation that supports searching, the you should expose a public resource (via a URI) for that
[11:33] <mrryanjohnston_> mamund: I thought doing something like a verb as a resource was generally not restful?
[11:33] <mamund> if your rule for that resource is to search across some "objects" kept on the server, have the server deal w/ that detail; don't expose that to the client
[11:33] <mamund> LOL
[11:34] <mamund> i did not suggest a _name_ for that identifier<g>
[11:34] <mrryanjohnston_> lol i see
[11:34] <mamund> you can call it whatever makes sense for your server implementation
[11:34] <mrryanjohnston_> so*
[11:34] <mrryanjohnston_> so it wso
[11:34] <mrryanjohnston_> it would still be something like resource?query=sadie
[11:34] <mrryanjohnston_> but resource is just whatever makes sense
[11:35] <mamund> sure, that's fine
[11:35] <mamund> here's the point i was making...
[11:35] <mrryanjohnston_> yeah sorry, continute
[11:35] <mamund> this description you have "search company, team, etc."
[11:35] <mamund> is a functionality on the _server_
[11:36] <mamund> you don't need to make that part of the identifier, etc.
[11:36] <mamund> make sense?
[11:36] <mrryanjohnston_> kind of. I see what you're saying as far as not TELLING the user we are searching for company, team, user
[11:36] <mrryanjohnston_> and that they just need to know they're getting back data from a resource
[11:37] <mrryanjohnston_> I was just confused how people usually name these things
[11:37] <mrryanjohnston_> in restful apis
[11:37] <mamund> ha!
[11:37] <mamund> naming
[11:37] <mamund> ok, that's really not a REST item, of course, but always a fun discussion
[11:37] <mrryanjohnston_> haha yes
[11:37] <mamund> the general rule for REST-ful hypermedia-driven implementations is that
[11:38] <mamund> the identifier MUST be meaningful to the _server_
[11:38] <mamund> the identifier SHOULD NOT be meaningful to the _client_
[11:38] <mamund> does that make sense?
[11:38] <mrryanjohnston_> identifier meaning the resource name?
[11:38] <mrryanjohnston_> like server/identifier/
[11:38] <mrryanjohnston_> ?
[11:38] <mamund> http://........?xxxxxxxxx
[11:38] <mamund> that
[11:39] <mamund> yeah, the whole thing is the identifier, not just the path parts.
[11:39] <mamund> make sense?
[11:39] <mrryanjohnston_> the whole uri
[11:39] <mamund> yep
[11:39] <mrryanjohnston_> well, yes.
[11:39] <mrryanjohnston_> but shouldn't it also make sense to the client? semantically?
[11:40] <mamund> nope
[11:40] <mamund> the _rel_ of the link is the semantic value for clients, not the identifier
[11:40] <mrryanjohnston_> like look at this would search for a truck with the vid: GET cars.com/trucks?vid=123556
[11:40] <mrryanjohnston_> I think I don't have my terms down :P
[11:40] <mrryanjohnston_> rel?
[11:40] <mamund> <a href="...." rel="car-search" />
[11:41] <mrryanjohnston_> ah interesting
[11:41] <mamund> the _rel_ is the semantic meaning.
[11:41] <mamund> the URI is just the identifier for that meaning
[11:41] <mamund> this is how hypermedia works
[11:41] <mamund> now, _many_ systems do not use the pattern i describe here.
[11:42] <mamund> \what i describe is much closer to Fielding's arch model called REST
[11:42] <mamund> the advantage of using _rel_ for links (or some other token identifier)
[11:43] <mamund> is that it allows servers to change the identifier over time w/o breaking clients
[11:43] <mamund> - servers move to new domain
[11:43] <mamund> - new technology deployed (.aspx, .jps, .shtml, etc.)
[11:43] <mamund> - new folder path, page, etc.)
[11:43] <mamund> does this help at all?
[11:44] <mrryanjohnston_> yes an no. Very interesting stuff about the rel bits, though. Thanks!
[11:44] <mamund> LOL
[11:44] <mrryanjohnston_> haha
[11:44] <mrryanjohnston_> we're implementing a rest server right now that we won't be plugging into anchor tags
[11:44] <mamund> Q:
[11:44] <mrryanjohnston_> we'll be calling the urls with things like curl
[11:44] <mrryanjohnston_> and asking for json
[11:44] <mamund> are you planning on telling your clients how to build URIs?
[11:45] <mrryanjohnston_> nope
[11:45] <mrryanjohnston_> well
[11:45] <mrryanjohnston_> er
[11:45] <mrryanjohnston_> haha
[11:45] <mrryanjohnston_> if we consider some of our devs clients, then yes
[11:46] <mrryanjohnston_> like they'll need to know in order to search all three resources by name, they need to do http://server/search?name=blah
[11:46] <mrryanjohnston_> or http://server/person/1234
[11:46] <mamund> ok, i will tell you i do that differently; even for "CURL-ers"
[11:46] <mrryanjohnston_> or http://server/person?fname=rob
[11:46] <mrryanjohnston_> I'm listening :)
[11:47] <mamund> send them a template
[11:47] <mamund> if in HTML, i use FORMs
[11:47] <mamund> if in JSON i use URI template
[11:47] <mamund> for folks doing command line work, you can provide this as an oline document
[11:48] <mamund> it's up to you
[11:48] <mamund> this is all about choices, not right/wrong
[11:48] <mrryanjohnston_> gotcha
[11:48] <mrryanjohnston_> good to know. thanks!
[11:48] <mrryanjohnston_> you've been a very big help
[11:49] <mamund> you're welcome to hang out here anytime; lots of smart folks to talk to here<g>
[11:49] <mrryanjohnston_> awesome
[11:49] <mrryanjohnston_> I've never built a rest server and this'll be quite an adventure
[11:50] <mamund> welcome to the fray!
[11:50] <mamund> <g>
[11:50] <mrryanjohnston_> haha thanks
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[12:35] <trygvis> mamund: ah, true
[12:35] <trygvis> but you wouldn't ever POST to a http link as you couldn't have found it anyway :)
[12:38] <mamund> trygvis: aha!
[12:39] <mamund> but if my super-hypermedia-client had visited your server a few weeks ago and _cached_ a copy of the representation that contained a FORM (with http://..) and then _replayed_ that form attempting to POST after your server was updated to only accept HTTPS, then *boom* goes the dyno-mite<g>!
[12:40] <trygvis> d'oh
[12:41] <mamund> LOL
[12:41] <mamund> i knew i could come up w/ some edge-case-y example!!!!
[12:42] <trygvis> this was kinda interresting if you're making a web robot: http://www.archive.org/web/researcher/ArcFileFormat.php
[12:42] <trygvis> they seem to have lots of java tools around the format too
[12:43] <trygvis> (I'm making a small index thingy these days so I'm into this kind of stuff)
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[15:41] mamund is leaving now, carry on
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[18:19] <mikekelly> hey look I made an image to show HAL's information model
[18:19] <mikekelly> http://stateless.co/info-model.png
[18:19] <darrelmiller> what is this JSON you speak of ?
[18:20] <mikekelly> oh right
[18:20] <mikekelly> shit
[18:20] <mikekelly> well I've closed photoshop now there's no going back
[18:21] <darrelmiller> :-) And that was the end of XML.
[18:21] <mikekelly> plus it's 2am
[18:21] <darrelmiller> So you will be pleased to know, today I think I found out how to use HTML in a browser without corrupting my soul.
[18:22] <darrelmiller> I'll tell you about it when I come back from my vacation. :-)
[18:23] <mikekelly> lol
[18:23] <mikekelly> if you're rendering html fragments to the DOM from an XHR request
[18:23] <mikekelly> that's called AHAH
[18:23] <mikekelly> also
[18:23] <darrelmiller> HA HA.
[18:24] <mikekelly> no
[18:24] <mikekelly> AHAH
[18:24] <mikekelly> like count dracula form sesame street
[18:25] <darrelmiller> Async Html And Hal
[18:25] <mikekelly> lol
[18:25] <darrelmiller> Sort of like when you have a eureka moment..... AHAH !!!!
[18:27] <mikekelly> so
[18:27] <mikekelly> when do you plan to start using rails ?
[18:27] <darrelmiller> Never.
[18:28] <mikekelly> sure, sure.
[18:28] <mikekelly> it's only a matter of time
[18:28] <mikekelly> right I need to sleep it's getting to stupid-o-clock
[18:28] <darrelmiller> I'd use node.js before rails. :-P
[18:28] <mikekelly> lol
[18:29] <darrelmiller> 'night.
[18:30] <mikekelly> project I'm working on atm has a distributed data store written from scratch with node
[18:30] <mikekelly> it's er.. interesting.
[18:31] <darrelmiller> Hey, when you have a shiny new tool. You might as well use it for everything, before the next shiny new tool comes along.
[18:31] <mikekelly> indeed, I do take the piss constantly
[18:31] <mikekelly> it's got an http interface
[18:31] <mikekelly> they wanted some extra processing that was hard to hook in with other datastores that would've worked
[18:32] <mikekelly> so they built one from scratch instead
[18:32] <mikekelly> I got there a bit late to suggest an intermediary
[18:32] <mikekelly> oh well.
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[18:32] <mikekelly> also
[18:33] <mikekelly> riak makes my brain hurt
[18:33] <mikekelly> so many things make my brain hurt
[18:33] <mikekelly> like not sleeping
[18:34] <mikekelly> or drinking enough water
[18:34] <darrelmiller> I have a suggestion.
[18:34] <darrelmiller> If it hurts. Don't do it.
[18:34] <mikekelly> what about
[18:34] <mikekelly> pooping giant golden eggs?
[18:36] <mikekelly> right that's definitely my queue to go to bed
[18:36] <darrelmiller> Definitely don't do that.
[18:36] <darrelmiller> s/queue/cue.
[18:36] <mikekelly> no
[18:36] <mikekelly> I meant queue
[18:36] <mikekelly> I'm not fucking disselectric darrel
[18:36] <darrelmiller> You mean like a snooker queue.
[18:37] <mikekelly> tatty-bye
[18:38] <darrelmiller> bye!
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[00:00] --- Thu Nov 17 2011