#rest on irc.freenode.net 2011-11-12 (txt)

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[16:31] <sjtgraham> hello there
[16:31] <sjtgraham> i have some questions about HATEOAS
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[16:51] <steveklabnik> hey sjtgraham
[16:52] <steveklabnik> this channel is sometimes busy, sometimes dead. it depends
[16:52] <sjtgraham> np. watching http://vimeo.com/28761654 for now :)
[16:53] <steveklabnik> havent watched that one yet
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[17:00] <sjtgraham> what is your view on PUT vs POST?
[17:00] <steveklabnik> whatcha mean?
[17:01] <sjtgraham> well, i commonly hear that it's incorrect to use PUT for only sending parameters that have been changed instead of the whole resource
[17:01] <steveklabnik> yes.
[17:01] <steveklabnik> that is true.
[17:01] <steveklabnik> that's what PATCH is for.
[17:01] <steveklabnik> it's newish though.
[17:01] <sjtgraham> i couldn't find that in the RFC
[17:02] <sjtgraham> for HTTP 1.1
[17:02] <sjtgraham> i.e. that that was a incorrect usage of PUT
[17:03] <steveklabnik> The PUT method requests that the enclosed entity be stored under the supplied Request-URI.
[17:03] <sjtgraham> "HTTP/1.1 does not define how a PUT method affects the state of an origin server"
[17:03] <steveklabnik> f the Request-URI refers to an already existing resource, the enclosed entity SHOULD be considered as a modified version of the one residing on the origin server.
[17:03] <steveklabnik> those two things together
[17:04] <steveklabnik> what you PUT is a replacement.
[17:04] <sjtgraham> implying you can in fact send the updated parameters alone
[17:04] <steveklabnik> huh?
[17:04] <steveklabnik> should be a modified version.
[17:04] <steveklabnik> which means, what you send is the new one.
[17:06] <steveklabnik> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789#page-2
[17:06] <steveklabnik> also, the RFC for patch
[17:06] <steveklabnik> The PUT method is already defined to overwrite a resource
[17:06] <steveklabnik> with a complete new body, and cannot be reused to do partial changes.
[17:06] <steveklabnik> Otherwise, proxies and caches, and even clients and servers, may get
[17:06] <steveklabnik> confused as to the result of the operation.
[17:07] <sjtgraham> i just think "HTTP/1.1 does not define how a PUT method affects the state of an origin server" implies that the server can just apply the request to the resource rather than replacing it.
[17:08] <sjtgraham> i need to reread the rfc i think to be sure
[17:09] <steveklabnik> well, let me put it this way.
[17:10] <steveklabnik> many, many, many other people have read and interpreted this before. and they all think it doesn't. so....
[17:10] <steveklabnik> know what i mean?
[17:10] <sjtgraham> do you mean "you are wrong" ?
[17:11] <steveklabnik> yes. :p
[17:11] <steveklabnik> in this particular case.
[17:11] <sjtgraham> i don't know how many people have actually read the rfc as opposed to regurgitating the opinions of others
[17:12] <steveklabnik> that's also true.
[17:12] <steveklabnik> i mean, amongst the people who read rfcs, care about standards, that kind of thing
[17:12] <steveklabnik> there are some things that are certainly up for debate
[17:12] <steveklabnik> but there's no question really about this.
[17:12] <sjtgraham> just as i wonder how many people have read fielding's thesis
[17:12] <steveklabnik> in particular.
[17:12] <sjtgraham> know what i mean
[17:12] <steveklabnik> totally.
[17:13] <steveklabnik> i am also not always right either.
[17:13] <sjtgraham> so i don't think that disproves my point
[17:13] <steveklabnik> this room gave me some crap about not mentioning caching in my talk at twilio
[17:13] <steveklabnik> which was on purpose, but still :)
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[17:16] <sjtgraham> so you must think rails is incorrect then?
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[17:17] <steveklabnik> absolutely
[17:17] <steveklabnik> rails-core agrees, actually
[17:18] <steveklabnik> but they wont change it
[17:18] <steveklabnik> said it'd break too much.
[17:18] <steveklabnik> which i think is bullshit.
[17:18] <steveklabnik> i'll be arguing about it when rails 4 is being worked on.
[17:18] <sjtgraham> do they agree they're wrong?
[17:18] <steveklabnik> yes
[17:18] <sjtgraham> link?
[17:18] <sjtgraham> to discussion…
[17:18] <steveklabnik> that discussion wasn't public.
[17:18] <steveklabnik> they talk in campfire
[17:19] <sjtgraham> "HTTP/1.1 does not define how a PUT method affects the state of an origin server." is very clear to me. I absolutely see your interpretation until i read that line
[17:24] <sjtgraham> this reminds me of statutory interpretation :D
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[00:00] --- Sun Nov 13 2011