#rest on irc.freenode.net 2011-11-09 (txt)

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[06:44] mamund sez 'hi'
[06:45] darrel waves
[06:45] <darrel> Did you see this yet ? http://www.slideshare.net/serialseb/links-forms-and-unicorns-10087510
[06:45] <mamund> nope
[06:45] <darrel> Seb has agents going on missions :-)
[06:45] <mamund> :)
[06:45] <mamund> sounds familiar
[06:49] mamund scans the slides quickly....
[06:51] <darrel> Just happy more people are getting to hear how a REST client is supposed to work and that it is a consistent message.
[06:53] <mamund> yeah, it's good to see "links and forms" getting good play.
[06:54] <darrel> Shhh. don't tell mikekelly that forms were mentioned.
[06:55] <Ngarthl> did someone say forms? ;)
[06:55] <darrel> Only in HTML, driven by humans. Ok.
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[09:00] <whartung> Lunch time darrel
[09:01] <darrel> Sorry, I couldn't wait. I ate early.
[09:02] <darrel> So, the killing of flash has overshadowed the dismissal of 750 people, so I still haven't found out if Roy got the boot or not.
[09:04] <whartung> yea I don't see the killing of flash actually impacting employment much since they're sticking with AIR, and flash is still gonna stay around on the web.
[09:05] <whartung> I would like to think they could transition the mobile people in to the AIR runtime group or whatever
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[09:45] <ssedano> Hi, what are the benefits of using the Link header?
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[09:47] <darrel> If you are returning a jpeg it is pretty hard to stuff a link in it :-)
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[09:48] <darrel> It also allows links to be processed whilst you retreiving and parsing the main payload.
[09:49] <darrel> The links are more visible to intermediaries because they use a standardized format.
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[10:23] <LiohAu> what response code should i use if a parameter does not have the appropriate format?
[10:23] <LiohAu> 500 ?
[10:24] <LiohAu> 400*
[10:25] <whartung> 412
[10:25] <whartung> or 400
[10:25] <whartung> 400 is probably better
[10:25] <whartung> "The request could not be understood by the server due to malformed syntax."
[10:26] <steveklabnik> 4XX is certainly better than 5XX, since it's the client's fault, not the server
[10:26] <whartung> yea, 400
[10:26] <whartung> si
[10:26] <LiohAu> well 400 was my first idea so i'll use it (the 500 was a typo error ^^)
[10:26] <Jarda> what about "Hey I need to have an integer as the id, not string"
[10:26] <Jarda> should it be 400 or 403?
[10:26] <LiohAu> 403? oO
[10:27] <LiohAu> Forbidden
[10:27] <LiohAu> i use it for auth only
[10:27] <LiohAu> or maybe permissions/rights errors
[10:27] <Jarda> 10.4.4 403 Forbidden
[10:27] <Jarda> The server understood the request, but is refusing to fulfill it. Authorization will not help and the request SHOULD NOT be repeated. If the request method was not HEAD and the server wishes to make public why the request has not been fulfilled, it SHOULD describe the reason for the refusal in the entity. If the server does not wish to make this information available to the client, the status code 404 (Not Found) can be used instead.
[10:28] <Jarda> 4pp
[10:28] <Jarda> 400 sounds to me as more like "the request couldn't be parsed"
[10:28] <LiohAu> well you're maybe right
[10:29] <Jarda> I guess both will do
[10:29] <steveklabnik> i'd consider 412? maybe? probably just 400
[10:29] <steveklabnik> certainly not 403
[10:29] <steveklabnik> i might also just 404 it
[10:29] <Jarda> steveklabnik: not 412 definitely
[10:29] <Jarda> it's for headers
[10:29] <steveklabnik> ahh, yeah, derp.
[10:30] <LiohAu> btw should i use something like that : header("HTTP/1.0 404 Not Found"); or header("HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found"); (http version ^^)
[10:30] <whartung> yea not 403
[10:30] <whartung> 400 makes the most sense
[10:31] <Jarda> ok
[10:31] <Jarda> I have seen both
[10:31] <whartung> 403 is security
[10:31] <whartung> 400 is structure
[10:31] <Jarda> whartung: from the rfc description it isn't clear that it's for security
[10:31] <Jarda> of course it's the common use case
[10:32] <steveklabnik> 'forbidden'?
[10:32] <whartung> well, ok
[10:32] <steveklabnik> isn't clear?
[10:32] <Jarda> and the description of 400 is "the server didn't understand"
[10:32] <whartung> The server understood the request, but is refusing to fulfill it.
[10:32] <whartung> yea 400 is WTF. 403 is "Yea, I know what you're saying, but I refuse"
[10:32] <Jarda> I most definitely understand that you are trying to set length to "asdf", I refuse to do that
[10:33] <whartung> Authorization will not help and the request SHOULD NOT be repeated.
[10:33] <whartung> that means it's not security
[10:33] <whartung> that's 401
[10:34] <whartung> so. 400. It's settled.
[10:35] <Jarda> hmm.. it still confuses me. As it states "couldn't be understood"
[10:37] <LiohAu> http://www.aisee.com/graph_of_the_month/http.png
[10:38] <LiohAu> what is HEAD for?
[10:39] <darrel> It's like a GET without returing a body.
[10:40] <LiohAu> what's the purpose? :d
[10:40] <steveklabnik> to get the heeaders without a body.
[10:40] <steveklabnik> :p
[10:40] <LiohAu> ^^
[10:40] <Jarda> darrel: what's your vote for "validation failed"
[10:40] <LiohAu> thx ;)
[10:40] <darrel> You could use it to determine if you understand the media type it is about to return.
[10:40] <darrel> You could use it to determine how big the payload is going to be.
[10:41] <darrel> You can use HEAD to test if a user is allowed to do a GET on it.
[10:42] <darrel> jarda: I'm a 400 kinda guy. It fits pretty much all of my "nah you can't do that" scenarios.
[10:43] <darrel> jarda: Although if it is an invalid parameter in the path of a URI I may be tempted to go 404.
[10:45] <fu-manchu> yeah URI's are identifiers. that's like saying '3' is an invalid parameter to the number 10959535 :P
[10:45] <darrel> or actually even in the query string. http://example.org/foo?format=blurg where blurg is an unknown format, I would probably return 404
[10:47] <fu-manchu> yup
[10:47] <darrel> fu-manchu: However, for http://example.org?emails/fromDate=2011-19-19 I think returning 400 instead of 404 or an empty result set might be more helpful.
[10:48] <whartung> 400 tells the client it's doing something wrong
[10:48] <whartung> 404 says you don't have it
[10:48] <darrel> I have mixed feelings about that last example.
[10:49] <darrel> whartung: 404 might be "I'm not telling you whether I have it or not, but you can't have it"
[10:50] <whartung> 404 is the "as far as you know, I don't have it"
[10:50] <darrel> haha.. I like that.
[10:52] <whartung> 400 is "I don't know what 2011-19-19" means. 404 is that these don't exist. They says different things. One could suggest that if I get a 404, then the parameters are correct, you just don't have them "Hi, do you have any cactus juice?" "404 - not found" vs "400 -- WTF, this is an auto parts store."
[10:54] <Jarda> yeah, in that sense also "wtf I don't understand what 'asdf' as length means"
[10:54] <whartung> right
[10:54] <Jarda> so 400 it is
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[11:39] <mikekelly> wtf
[11:40] <mikekelly> mamund darrel I'm sorry but
[11:40] <mikekelly> I did see those slides
[11:40] darrel hides behind sofa
[11:41] <mikekelly> this is the kind of shit where I look at someone like JJ Dubrey and think
[11:41] <mikekelly> "actually, you might have a point."
[11:42] <mikekelly> that form example is ridiculous and the conclusion slide straight after it is totally disingenuous
[11:42] <darrel> I'd ask "and what point would that be" but I'm too afraid.
[11:43] <mikekelly> that there are some people who have blind faith in 'the web' being the blueprint for 'how we should do machine apps'
[11:44] <mikekelly> and actually don't care about why they're doing it, or if everything they're doing is worthwhile
[11:44] darrel waves hand, there are no machine to machine apps.
[11:44] <mikekelly> that's very zen darrel
[11:44] <mikekelly> :D
[11:45] <mikekelly> there are apps that are traversed by automated actors
[11:45] <darrel> Those are just pre-canned human decisions and regurgitated.
[11:46] <mikekelly> precisely.
[11:46] <mikekelly> which is why a representation aimed at that specific type of actor
[11:46] <mikekelly> needn't have anything in-band
[11:47] <darrel> You are preaching to the choir. I
[11:47] <darrel> I just choose to allow others to practice a different religion, no matter how wrong I think it is.
[11:47] <darrel> :-)
[11:48] <mikekelly> fuck that I'm going all Richard Dawkins up in this bitch
[11:48] <darrel> LOL
[11:48] mamund is bored by the same pronouncements
[11:49] <darrel> mikekelly: I'm more a fan of Christopher Hitchens.
[11:49] <whartung> haha
[11:49] <whartung> I agree that the forms don't really make sense in the m2m scenarios
[11:49] <whartung> but the question becomes
[11:50] <whartung> at what point along the slippery slope can we cast aside the "in band" issue with m2m?
[11:50] <darrel> To my knowledge, there are two accepted ways of conveying semantics. Link relations and media types. That's as far I slide.
[11:51] <darrel> I turn a blind eye to semantic profiles because I figure they can be a media type parameter, which is good enough ;-)
[11:55] <mikekelly> whartung: technically my apps still have the 'control' in band
[11:55] <whartung> how so?
[11:56] <mikekelly> because my link rels are URIs (an therefore links) themselves
[11:56] <mikekelly> and they contain 'controls'
[11:56] <mikekelly> which 'control'
[11:56] <mikekelly> the developers who write the consuming machines
[11:56] <mikekelly> STOP
[11:56] <whartung> assuming they follow them, yes
[11:56] <mikekelly> HAMMER TIME
[11:57] <mikekelly> woooooooooOOOOOOAAAAAooooooooooAAAAAoooooOAAH
[11:57] <mikekelly> whartung: what developers?
[11:57] <darrel> mikekelly: You bring up an interesting distinction there.
[11:57] <whartung> yea
[11:58] <mikekelly> of course they do, I'm writing the browser based clien they use to discover the app in the first place
[11:58] <mikekelly> and the rels will be presented as links they can follow
[11:58] <darrel> by forcing devs to use a link rel to identify the characteristics of the interactions you are encouraging devs to reuse those semantics.
[11:58] <mikekelly> ad it'll pop up a box with the docs
[11:59] <darrel> whereas the dynamic form approach could lead devs to create custom intereactions with every updatable resource.
[11:59] <mikekelly> darrel: right, and you're being consistent about where change is applied
[11:59] <mikekelly> so it's good damage control
[11:59] <darrel> however the notion of a "form" does have a set of limiting semantics.
[12:11] <Jarda> actually guys
[12:12] <Jarda> I have thought about something like Accept: application/vnd.myapplication.template+json GET /customers
[12:13] <Jarda> of course it could be that my collection returned from /customers could include the template
[12:14] <Jarda> but I thought it would be cool if I could tell all implementors to fetch the skeleton resource, just modify what needs to be modified and submit
[12:14] <Jarda> don't know how it actually would differ from just documenting the resources in media type
[12:15] <darrel> jarda: In a m2m scenario, how can the user-agent know which elements of your template it wants to update.
[12:15] <mamund> Jarda: in my Collection+JSON design, i provide the option of including a "skeleton" for writing content back to the server (i called it a "template")
[12:16] <darrel> if you display some rendering of the template to the user and they choose to update some elements then that's cool.
[12:16] <Jarda> darrel: yeah, maybe it doesn't help with m2m, but I'm thinking of some kind of automated input creation for the clients (let them be html or some other clients)
[12:16] <Jarda> I mean, it would be cool to provide in example localization for the field names etc
[12:16] <darrel> However, in a m2m scenario the client has to have existing knowledge of the elements of the template, at which point the template is redundant.
[12:16] <Jarda> mostly useful for browser apps
[12:17] <Jarda> mamund: yeah, that's where I got the inspiration from
[12:17] <darrel> jarda: That's basically what I do. I have a static resource that has all of my translations of labels and data binding paths for data entry fields.
[12:18] <Jarda> of course I could call my templates forms, I guess
[12:18] <darrel> :-)
[12:19] <Jarda> and make the field names more like html forms, like {"action":<url>,"method":"POST":"fields":{...}}
[12:20] <Jarda> but where it gets really cool, is when I have some xml-representation sent to a client, I can make the client just use the xml straight (modify the properties) and it doesn't have to actually construct anything
[12:21] <Jarda> I know, I'm lazy, but if I already have the technique to construct xml structures on the service, why replicate it in the clients :D
[12:21] <darrel> That's fine for small single level templates.
[12:21] <darrel> It's much less fun when you have parent child relationsships and the representations are large.
[12:22] <Jarda> yeah, my services are pretty simple CRUD services, (at least for now)
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[12:22] <darrel> and how do you know the difference between someone not wanting to change a value and someone wanting to clear the value from the field?
[12:23] <darrel> ok, ignore that last comment.
[12:23] <Jarda> ok
[12:23] <Jarda> :)
[12:23] <darrel> I was thinking of a different case.
[12:23] <whartung> you know because you make them send back fields they don't want to update :)
[12:23] <Jarda> btw, anyone tried to build a hypermedia api INTO a couchdb database
[12:24] <Ngarthl> Jarda: mogsie has
[12:24] <Jarda> like building links and stuff to show-functions, I guess
[12:24] <darrel> whartung: Yeah, it's not the most efficient method.
[12:24] <whartung> no one ever said REST was efficient...
[12:25] <darrel> whartung: My SequenceOfEvents mediatype only sends information about properties that have changed. :-P
[12:25] <mikekelly> bloody mamund and your World Of Collections(tm) :D
[12:25] <whartung> it's a new theme park attraction, mikekelly
[12:26] <mikekelly> sounds over-constrained
[12:26] <mamund> mikekelly: ain't "my" world<g>
[12:26] <mikekelly> I guess some people are into that kind of thing.
[12:26] <whartung> mamund's new theme park and vacation destination: "Mikes REST"
[12:26] <darrel> At least we don't have no stinkin' forms in hal :-)
[12:26] <mamund> :)
[12:27] <mikekelly> I've still got it marked down to write down SHAL
[12:27] <darrel> mikekelly: You're just twisted.
[12:27] <mikekelly> yeah well.
[12:28] <mikekelly> it's the best proposal I've seen for doing machine forms
[12:28] <darrel> We're still waiting for the error media type....
[12:28] <mikekelly> naturally..
[12:28] <mikekelly> :D
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[17:16] mamund has enjoyed the repeition, toodles ya'll!
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[17:17] <darrel> 'night
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[00:00] --- Thu Nov 10 2011