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[07:26:57] Action: mamund is here
[07:28:28] Action: darrelmiller waves
[07:31:20] <mamund> hi, darrelmiller 
[07:31:50] Nick change: darrelmiller -> darrel
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[09:06:07] <mikekelly> mamund: yup I was happy to see all this talk about ESI
[09:06:19] <mikekelly> been pimping it all over the shot
[09:07:00] <mikekelly> went to see last.fm a month or so ago and gave them my take on how they should break out their arch away from monolithic stack
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[09:07:32] <mikekelly> actually think I made a pretty decent crack at a back-of-a-napkin solution
[09:07:55] <mikekelly> basically revolved around what I call 'resource-composition' 
[09:08:59] <mikekelly> have I accidentally stole that term from somewhere else or is it mine ?
[09:09:43] <darrel> I think Cesare Pautasso used that term in his talk at the www conf.
[09:09:54] <darrel> Although, I don't think you were in that talk!
[09:10:07] <mikekelly> wrt ESI ?
[09:10:16] <darrel> no.
[09:10:23] <mikekelly> what was the context ?
[09:11:06] <darrel> http://drops.dagstuhl.de/opus/volltexte/2009/2043/  "Composing RESTful services"
[09:11:57] <darrel> This is the talk he did http://www.jopera.org/files/vuamsterdam-bpel4rest-talk.pdf
[09:12:06] <mikekelly> sweet thanks
[09:13:19] <mikekelly> annoyed me that someone claimed ajax stuff is a competing strategy
[09:13:25] <mikekelly> in comments on mnot's blog
[09:14:10] <mikekelly> the UX on that is *horrible*
[09:14:16] <mikekelly> witness twitter web app
[09:14:47] <darrel> Ironically, I prefer the twitter web app than every other native app I've tried.
[09:15:08] <mikekelly> really? fair enough.
[09:15:22] <mikekelly> I preferred when it was just.. you know.. an html page
[09:15:36] <mikekelly> but no no no
[09:16:02] <mikekelly> it needed to be improved with a ridiculous composition lag and big fat javascript codebase
[09:16:54] <mikekelly> that new twitter app does nothing that couldn't have been refactored into something which sat on top of the html pages they already had
[09:17:34] <mikekelly> but I guess that wouldn't be "innovative" enough
[09:18:40] <darrel> Yeah, I accept that it is fat and clunky and you can't bookmark half the uris.
[09:19:00] <darrel> It sucks as a web app.  I just find it sucks less than the desktop apps I've tried!
[09:19:15] <mikekelly> meh, tweetdeck is ok for me
[09:19:25] <mikekelly> I use lists a lot so it suits my use case
[09:19:26] <darrel> Which considering my distaste for anything HTML related is quite a statement.
[09:19:35] <mikekelly> muahaha
[09:19:47] <mikekelly> everyone knows your a closet HTML-canoodler
[09:20:19] <mikekelly> cmon man
[09:20:23] <mikekelly> CANVAS TAGS
[09:20:26] <mikekelly> OMGGOMGOMGOMG
[09:20:27] <darrel> Did someone say <time> ? or was that <data> ?
[09:20:35] <mikekelly> no I said <CANVAS>
[09:22:00] <fu-manchu> yeah they really should switch to flash :P
[09:22:06] <mikekelly> :)
[09:22:45] <mikekelly> http://twitter.com/mikekelly85/statuses/133951846330011648
[09:22:46] <darrel> Canvas tag:  The reproduction of a primitive immediate mode graphics system inside the web browser.
[09:22:50] <mikekelly> fair question^ ?
[09:23:10] <darrel> because the graphic libraries on the desktop were just too awesome.
[09:23:13] <mikekelly> darrel: I dunno what kind of fucking apps you build but they sound pretty complicated.
[09:25:00] <fu-manchu> obviously mashups if they're fucking
[09:25:09] <fu-manchu> ba-dum TISH
[09:25:24] <darrel> My UI needs are very simple.
[09:25:46] <mikekelly> use html then.
[09:25:54] <mikekelly> cmooooon...
[09:26:06] <mikekelly> you know you want to.
[09:26:28] <darrel> Get me decent HTML rendering library that runs outside of the web browser and we can talk.
[09:27:01] <darrel> And I've tried compiling webkit and integrating it with .net.  That's wasn't much fun.
[09:37:05] <mikekelly> ditch .net?
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[09:38:19] <mikekelly> http://twitter.com/mikekelly85/statuses/133951846330011648
[09:38:26] <mikekelly> darrel: think that's a fair question?
[09:38:26] <darrel> Yeah and do what php, java? no thanks.
[09:38:40] <mikekelly> php?
[09:39:07] <darrel> I keep getting "that page does not exist" from your twitter links.
[09:39:42] <mikekelly> er what
[09:39:45] <mikekelly> works for me
[09:39:53] <mikekelly> FUCK YOU TWITTER YOU SUCK
[09:39:59] <darrel> apparently you don't exist on Twitter, mike.
[09:40:09] <mikekelly> seriosuly they have probably the SIMPLEST sodding app you could imagine
[09:40:15] <mikekelly> and they stil can't scale that shit
[09:40:19] <mikekelly> wtf is wrong with them?
[09:41:03] <mikekelly> oh yeah
[09:41:03] <darrel> they ignore HTTP caching and try and do everything with memcached.  Stupid, stupid, stupid,
[09:41:05] <mikekelly> ruby on rails.
[09:41:19] <mikekelly> yeah
[09:42:01] <mikekelly> I wrote a little exporter thing for an e-commerce system a couple of months back
[09:42:08] <darrel> I have to go now and do a daily scrum for my new project.  Wohoo!
[09:42:10] <mikekelly> apparently it doesn't respond fast enough
[09:42:45] <mikekelly> so some douche-nozzle suggested he 'fix' my export by fucking storing it as xml on file
[09:42:56] <mikekelly> and refreshing it every 10 minutes
[09:43:02] <darrel> hahah!!!
[09:43:07] <mikekelly> so I very politely corrected him.
[09:43:42] <darrel> Today, I get to work with a framework that is designed based on the principle of object remoting.  :-)
[09:43:52] <mikekelly> SWEET
[09:43:56] <mikekelly> that sounds AWESOME
[09:44:07] <darrel> Let's hope it does it well. :-)
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[09:44:31] <mikekelly> I get to work some more on a REST api for a SaaS app
[09:44:40] <mikekelly> YAY INTERNETS
[09:45:37] <mikekelly> ruby on rails is an absolute beast now, too.
[09:45:47] <mikekelly> love it love it love it
[09:46:24] <mikekelly> muhaahahaha
[09:50:36] <mikekelly> darrel: would your clients use a rails app ?
[09:51:03] <mikekelly> if you could prove resilience/scalability etc ?
[09:51:25] <darrel> My clients don't really care much.  I would never use rails :-)
[09:51:32] <mikekelly> what the fuck
[09:51:35] <mikekelly> :D
[09:51:36] <darrel> :-P
[09:51:54] <mikekelly> is that like some sado-masochistic thing?
[09:52:36] <mikekelly> what do you need that rails doesn't have ? serious question
[09:52:42] <darrel> Nah.  I just don't like it's attitude.
[09:53:07] <mikekelly> neither did I until they merged with Merb
[09:53:23] <mikekelly> it basically does what the WCF Web stuff does
[09:53:29] <darrel> Call me an old fart, but I like my statically typed language.
[09:53:36] <mikekelly> you're an old fart.
[09:53:42] <darrel> I know.
[09:54:11] <darrel> I like my intellisense and stepping debugger.
[09:54:30] <mikekelly> how much difference does static make in a resource-oriented app?
[09:55:13] <darrel> It's only my API that is "resource oriented"  there is lots of other code in the app.
[09:55:51] <mikekelly> that's all part of the same tier?
[09:59:24] <mikekelly> I did spend a few weeks working on a .net project this year
[10:00:05] <mikekelly> one thing that struck me is that there's too many shiney-looking microsoft-certified ropes for people to hang themselves on
[10:00:53] <mikekelly> the ecosystem seems pretty horrible, no offence
[10:01:29] <mikekelly> like.. wtf is that webforms stuff?
[10:01:33] <mikekelly> is that what its called?
[10:02:28] <mikekelly> might be thinking of something else
[10:03:15] <whartung> moring all
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[10:45:08] <darrel_> mikekelly:  Yes.  There is lots of crap littered around the MS ecosystem.
[10:45:16] <darrel_> webforms is definitely one example of that.
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[11:07:53] <Jarda> darrel: what's the tool to use if you want to do RESTful service with .NET
[11:08:02] <Jarda> we are having a hard time to hire PHP devs
[11:08:11] <Jarda> so I thought maybe we should re-consider
[11:08:19] <Jarda> everyone in this town is using either .NET or Java
[11:08:35] <Jarda> and don't even consider changing for a job that isn't .NET or Java..
[11:09:10] <darrel> OpenRasta is the most mature solution in .Net
[11:09:22] <darrel> If you want something from MS, then this http://wcf.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=WCF%20HTTP is in the works.
[11:10:32] <darrel> Nancy is another framework that is suitable https://github.com/thecodejunkie/Nancy
[11:13:44] <Jarda> mmkay, thanks
[11:13:51] <Jarda> have to consider options
[11:31:14] <mikekelly> use rails and remote devs
[11:32:20] <mikekelly> and html
[11:32:54] <mikekelly> darrel's #1 REST stack of choice
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[16:54:48] <darrel> I wonder if Roy spent a long time crafting that last tweet.
[16:56:22] <whartung> ?
[16:56:46] <darrel> Actually that's pretty close.  https://twitter.com/#!/fielding/status/134070029313523712
[16:57:25] <whartung> haha
[16:57:32] <whartung> yea...umm... "Context?"
[16:57:57] <darrel> That is left up to us to interpret.
[17:07:04] <whartung> Did you see the blurbs about Yahoo Mojito?
[17:17:00] <darrel> no.  Is that a new fancy Sillycon valley drink?
[17:51:29] <whartung> darrel: it's a JS thing based on Node that lets your code run on both the client and server
[17:53:12] <darrel> You know what.  I can write C# that runs on both the client and server.  I never thought it was a such big deal.
[17:53:28] <whartung> but..but..but it's NODE!
[17:53:48] <whartung> By dropping that I get to hang with the cool kids or something
[17:54:23] <darrel> Just wait until they get Rails running on Node, the cool kids will explode.
[17:58:41] <whartung> rails is dead everyone knows that
[18:00:26] <darrel> Oh, sorry, what's the cool framework this week?
[18:01:11] <whartung> hell if I know, I'm a java guy -- nothing is cool there.
[18:01:40] <darrel> haha.  I heard today you Java guys are trying to copy linq.
[18:01:46] <whartung> we are?
[18:02:09] <whartung> I always though linq was kinda cool. At least the 2 paragraphs I read about it...
[18:02:29] <darrel> http://java.net/projects/el-spec/pages/CollectionOperations
[18:05:14] <whartung> oh, in EL, not in Java
[18:06:40] <darrel> It's on the Java.net site.  That's good enough for me to make sweeping generalizations :-)
[18:06:47] <whartung> :)
[18:08:33] <whartung> EL is the Expression Language
[18:08:39] <whartung> used in JSP and in JSF
[18:08:43] <whartung> (among other places)
[18:19:20] <darrel> I think I just found the source of Roy's WTF http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/us-adobe-idUSTRE7A77R220111109
[18:26:52] <whartung> yea bye bye print
[18:27:00] <whartung> fuck pantone...
[18:34:16] <whartung> at least now they can lower the memory requirements becayse we don't need resolutions higher than 1024x768
[18:34:28] <whartung> bring back the 3MP cameras, yo
[18:45:06] <darrel> Ya know.  Roy works in the "enterprise software" part of Adobe.  You don't think....
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[00:00:00] --- Wed Nov  9 2011