#rest on irc.freenode.net 2010-05-06 (txt)

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[12:00] <algermissen> ordnungswidrig: re shopping cart....
[12:01] <algermissen> What do you think: does it make sense to refer to such stuff as a shopping cart as 'user state'?
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[12:01] <algermissen> where the user agent can provide a means to maintain and manage user state?
[12:02] <algermissen> I like user state because it separates it from application state - which it is because it can remain as-is between application state transitions
[12:02] <ordnungswidrig> hi
[12:03] <ordnungswidrig> yes, user agent sate would be more correct. the user state contains only the goal the user wants to achieve using the user agent
[12:04] <algermissen> and conceptually it is only a convenience that it is maintained in the user agent
[12:04] <algermissen> could equally well be on user's HD
[12:04] <ordnungswidrig> yes, the user could also write down the product ids on paper and enter it into a order form all at once.
[12:05] <algermissen> IOW, if a machine user would remember the items to purchase, it would just store them in an object or so to keep them around
[12:05] <algermissen> ah - paper. same thing. good
[12:06] <algermissen> relieved that you 'confirm' my thoughts ;-)
[12:07] <ordnungswidrig> *g*
[12:21] <ordnungswidrig> yes, I think we're on the same track
[12:37] darrelmiller deftly avoids a customer meeting today and is ready to get some work done.
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[12:47] <ordnungswidrig> darrelmiller: great move, then!
[12:51] <darrelmiller> Although I am a great believer in the agile principle of keeping the customer involved, sometimes there is nothing that slows me down more than keeping the customer involved ;-)
[12:52] <ordnungswidrig> darrelmiller: keeping the right customer involved is fun, keeping the wrong customer involved is& annoying.
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[14:10] mamund is in the house
[14:11] <mikekelly> yo
[14:13] <mamund> yo-ho!
[14:19] darrelmiller is trying to integrate IronPython into a C# app and hoping for clarity very soon.
[14:20] mamund lights a candle for darrelmiller
[14:21] <mikekelly> why not just do everything 'as a service'
[14:21] <mikekelly> hide behind HTTP
[14:21] <mikekelly> and use a proper web dev stack
[14:21] <mikekelly> ?
[14:21] <mikekelly> >:))
[14:21] <darrelmiller> I want to do code download to my client.
[14:22] <mikekelly> code download? o.O
[14:23] <darrelmiller> I'm prepared to go a long way out of my way to avoid HTML ;-)
[14:24] <mikekelly> fair enough! :)
[14:35] <mikekelly> fucking politics
[14:35] <mikekelly> what a joke
[14:49] <mikekelly> there are people who govern the world but you don't vote for them
[14:50] <mikekelly> politics is more like WWE
[15:01] <mikekelly> mamund: that 'expanding web platform' link 404's
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[15:07] <mamund> really>
[15:07] <mamund> huh
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[15:09] <mamund> yep
[15:09] <mamund> it's a bug on their end - sweet
[15:09] <mamund> http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/w3cqa_news/ceo/
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[16:52] <KevBurnsJr> bigbluehat: saw your question from yesterday about Recess.
[16:53] <KevBurnsJr> I've been tooling around with it for about a year now.
[16:53] <KevBurnsJr> Currently using it at work for a new project.
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[17:01] <bigbluehat> KevBurnsJr: very cool. Yet another ORM was my only hesitation...
[17:03] <bigbluehat> still wishing for a truly resource-oriented framework
[17:03] <bigbluehat> Apache Cocoon was as close as I feel I've ever come to that
[17:03] <bigbluehat> but it's stuck with XML/XSLT and/or Java...too heavy for most of what I do
[18:14] <mikekelly> bigbluehat: I hacked the zend framework and came up with a potential 'resource oriented' approach to MVC
[18:14] <mikekelly> it's a pretty dirty poc but it works
[18:14] <bigbluehat> :) would love ot see it
[18:15] <mikekelly> http://github.com/mikekelly/Resauce
[18:15] <bigbluehat> @BradleyHolt's got one to it seems (per mamund's retweet)
[18:15] <bigbluehat> love the name
[18:15] <mikekelly> basically it's just really simple route => controller with no actions
[18:16] <mikekelly> and then you just map the actions by the HTTP method
[18:16] <mikekelly> so it's a controller per resource
[18:16] <mikekelly> and a controller per uri route
[18:16] <bigbluehat> yeah. I like. similar to some (actually older) CGI stuff where HTTP Methods were object methods
[18:16] <darrelmiller> ...as it should be.
[18:16] <mikekelly> right - but it's still MVC so you can share your logic in the model
[18:17] <mikekelly> which means there's actually no need for collection + item stuff in the same controller
[18:17] <mikekelly> fuck what rails says >:)
[18:17] <darrelmiller> :-O
[18:17] <mikekelly> the cool thing you get from that is auto 405's for free
[18:17] <mikekelly> :)
[18:18] <bigbluehat> very nice :)
[18:18] <mikekelly> that's coded like a piece of shit but I just wanted to see if that would work and if anyone was interested
[18:18] <mikekelly> turns out someone used it for their thesis
[18:19] <mikekelly> bachelors not doctoral
[18:21] <mikekelly> did some server side REST interface for an iphone app
[18:21] <mikekelly> 'REST interface'
[18:21] <mikekelly> HTTP :)
[18:22] <mikekelly> but, to me, that approach to MVC makes a lot of sense
[18:24] <bigbluehat> yeah. agreed
[18:24] <mikekelly> technicall Resauce resources are proper REST resources because the interface isn't tied to HTTP
[18:24] <bigbluehat> nice and light too
[18:29] <bigbluehat> mikekelly: Resause vs. Glue, thoughts?
[18:29] <mikekelly> yeah so I don't know if that was what you meant by resource oriented, and it doesn't have anything in built for hypermedia other than inbuilt HTML helpers
[18:30] <mikekelly> bigbluehat: not much difference other than Resauce slots in with ZF out of the box
[18:30] <mikekelly> hold on which one is glue?
[18:30] <mikekelly> :
[18:30] <bigbluehat> got it. whereas Glue would take some...glue
[18:30] <mikekelly> there's so many microframeworks now :P
[18:30] <bigbluehat> it's in your repo list ;)
[18:30] <bigbluehat> we should all go camping ;)
[18:31] <mikekelly> o.O
[18:31] <bigbluehat> I miss _why...
[18:32] <darrelmiller> crap we just lost power. I'm shutting dow...
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[18:32] <mikekelly> lol
[18:33] <mikekelly> bigbluehat: why care? you're moving over to javascript anyway! :P
[18:33] <mikekelly> you seen picard, yea?
[18:33] <bigbluehat> oh yeah. :)
[18:34] bigbluehat looks up picard
[18:34] <bigbluehat> ah, node.js
[18:34] <mikekelly> yeah it's a bit like sinatra
[18:35] <bigbluehat> aren't they all ;)
[18:35] <mikekelly> :D
[18:35] <bigbluehat> check out evently: http://couchapp.org/taskr/_design/taskr/vendor/couchapp/docs.html#/topic/evently
[18:35] <mikekelly> I think I still prefer building a resource object and tying it to a URI
[18:36] <bigbluehat> CouchApp sinatra-esq thing
[18:36] <mikekelly> oh wuuut
[18:36] <mikekelly> that sounds awesome :)
[18:36] <bigbluehat> yeah. I like that model as well
[18:36] <bigbluehat> otherwise you're constantly checking the routes doc
[18:36] <bigbluehat> tho
[18:36] <bigbluehat> I do like the flexibility uber-routes gives you
[18:37] <bigbluehat> mikekelly: evently's actually more like sammy ;)
[18:37] <mikekelly> yeah I was jus tabout to say that
[18:37] <mikekelly> it's client side right?
[18:37] <bigbluehat> right
[18:37] <mikekelly> I actually really like sammy.js, it's kind of a weird way to do client-side hypertext
[18:38] <mikekelly> and it's local storage API is promising
[18:38] <bigbluehat> "Evently has special handlers for CouchDB views and _changes feeds, and could be easily extended for other server-side frameworks."
[18:38] <bigbluehat> haven't played with it nearly enough, but plan to
[18:39] <bigbluehat> just got jQuery into the latest BlueInk release (progressively leaving MooTools out to pasture)
[18:39] <mikekelly> heh
[18:39] <bigbluehat> I may use evently over sammy for it's later CouchDB use
[18:39] <mikekelly> I actually think jQuery is a bit of a cop-out in javascript terms
[18:39] <mikekelly> but it's effective and it's easy to use
[18:40] <mikekelly> ExtJS is actually really nice but it's just not fashionable because they mucked up their licensing
[18:40] <mikekelly> depends what kind of app you're building too I guess
[18:40] <bigbluehat> mikekelly: you should be at http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/e/1604
[18:40] <bigbluehat> yeah, I won't touch ExtJS with a ten foot pole because of that...
[18:40] <bigbluehat> licensing is key, really
[18:41] <bigbluehat> code is great and all ;)
[18:41] <mikekelly> yeah sure - it's powerful though
[18:41] <mikekelly> and it's well concieved
[18:42] <mikekelly> I wish I was on mainland I would make it to all these cool dude events in London :P
[18:42] <bigbluehat> yeah. it's a bit of a walk from here too
[18:55] <insanekane> bigbluehat: why leave mootools out to pasture? its the best toolkit out there!
[18:58] <bigbluehat> insanekane: glad you like it.
[18:58] <bigbluehat> it's been good to us for the last 3+ years
[18:58] <bigbluehat> we want to get something "smaller" (code-per-line wise)
[18:58] <insanekane> thats silly
[18:59] <bigbluehat> we want something with more plugins...since we're building blueinkcms.com
[18:59] <insanekane> right
[18:59] <bigbluehat> so users can grab whatever without adding more libs
[18:59] <bigbluehat> we want something we can use on both client & server in JavaScript & PHP: http://code.google.com/p/phpquery/
[18:59] <bigbluehat> switching gears is getting old
[19:00] <bigbluehat> a common API in both places will be very helpful
[19:00] <insanekane> you're right. ... since you're building a CMS, people won't need any object orientation or anything ... just plain ol' repetitive procedural code will do fine
[19:00] <bigbluehat> plus, we appreciate jQuery's leadership, community, etc
[19:00] <bigbluehat> OOP is great for what it is, but it's not the hammer for every screw ;)
[19:00] <insanekane> you mean marketing right? thats a big win for jquery
[19:00] <insanekane> it is the hammer for UIs
[19:00] <bigbluehat> and their licensing policy, etc
[19:01] <bigbluehat> it's a broader (opinion wise) and generally friendlier/easier to work with community...which has value beyond code
[19:02] <insanekane> thats silly. you have nothing to back that up, other than some hearsay
[19:02] <insanekane> i mean, just keep repeating the same shit, then one day it will become true
[19:03] <bigbluehat> 3+ years with content similar to the above is wearing...so we're moving on
[19:03] <bigbluehat> jQuery is also the "leading" JS lib in the CouchDB world--another tech we're beginning to use more & more
[19:04] <bigbluehat> so mootools value has continued to drop
[19:04] <mikekelly> :)
[19:04] <bigbluehat> I'm glad others still love it/enjoy it/defend it
[19:04] <bigbluehat> just not sure beatings have ever done much to increase moral
[19:06] <mikekelly> I take it kane you're on the team?
[19:06] <insanekane> mikekelly: no im not
[19:07] <insanekane> but it's silly to see the same stupid arguments all over again ... especially the "community" argument
[19:07] <mikekelly> if there's little difference why not pick up a cup of lovely profitable kool-aid?
[19:08] <mikekelly> mmmm, win.
[19:08] <bigbluehat> insanekane: my community comments come from personal experience with dialog on the lists, etc which, while informative ("we do things this way, your way sucks") weren't really inviting nor did they give me a reason to want to foster/promote/live-with that community "forever"
[19:08] <insanekane> too many script kiddies in the world ... lots of people who extol the virtues of ORMs and MVC and whatever
[19:08] <insanekane> and at the same time use jquery of all things at the place where OO has been proven time and again
[19:09] <mikekelly> script kiddies includes hackers who want to get shit done?
[19:09] <insanekane> getting shit done badly?
[19:09] <bigbluehat> insanekane: please learn Erlang
[19:09] <insanekane> hackers don't produce hacks
[19:09] <bigbluehat> http://learnyousomeerlang.com/
[19:09] <bigbluehat> hackers are all there are
[19:10] <mikekelly> hackers solve problems efficiently
[19:10] <insanekane> in the web world, most of them are "hackers who produce hacks"
[19:10] <bigbluehat> and the scientists (see the semantic web crowd) give the hackers interesting things to work with ;)
[19:10] <mikekelly> re-inventing the wheel because you can squeeze 5% more out is not efficient use of your time on this planet
[19:10] <insanekane> efficiency is not always about "get a lot of shitty code out there as fast as possible"
[19:10] <bigbluehat> <cough>range 14</cough>
[19:11] <mikekelly> lol
[19:11] <bigbluehat> and life isn't about pissing the general public off with your opinion
[19:11] <mikekelly> is that intentionally ironic?
[19:11] <mikekelly> :P
[19:11] <bigbluehat> it's about helping, being humble, and moving things forward however you can (where you are with what you know)
[19:11] <insanekane> you just did the same way before i got in this discussion
[19:11] <bigbluehat> ?
[19:12] <bigbluehat> because I told mikekelly I was leaving mootools out to pasture?
[19:12] <bigbluehat> it was pun
[19:12] <bigbluehat> not a slam, etc
[19:12] <bigbluehat> sorry if I stepped on toes
[19:12] <mikekelly> I thought it was funny
[19:12] <bigbluehat> it was completely meant for it's humor value
[19:12] <insanekane> c'mon you're not really sorry, admit it
[19:12] <bigbluehat> about what?
[19:13] <mikekelly> I think he's sorry you're so upset
[19:13] <bigbluehat> not sure I've done anything worth being sorry about
[19:13] <bigbluehat> that's true
[19:13] <insanekane> then why did you write "sorry if I stepped on toes" ?
[19:13] <insanekane> just stop making lame excuses like "community"
[19:13] <bigbluehat> because I didn't see them there. :)
[19:13] <bigbluehat> it's not an excuse, it's *my* reason. Doesn't have to be yours or anyone elses
[19:14] <mikekelly> why is that a 'lame excuse' ?
[19:14] <mikekelly> :/
[19:14] <insanekane> because it is one
[19:14] <bigbluehat> ?
[19:14] <bigbluehat> I'll rephrase
[19:14] <bigbluehat> I like (personally) the jQuery community better
[19:15] <mikekelly> is the mootools community equivalent in size?
[19:15] <bigbluehat> doesn't mean I think everyone on the planet should jump ship and drink their kool-aid
[19:15] <insanekane> thats much better bigbluehat
[19:15] <bigbluehat> jQuery's also in the other apps we're using (CouchDB being the most obvious)
[19:16] <bigbluehat> had I known your foot was there, I would have stepped elsewhere
[19:17] <insanekane> when you make unqualified statements, someone's foot is bound to be stepped on
[19:17] <mikekelly> I'd like ot know the big pluses over jQuery though you seem like you know something I don't ;/
[19:17] <insanekane> and when all of the lame jquery "community" makes unqualified statements, it just hurts communities like mootools
[19:18] <bigbluehat> I don't consider myself of either community at the moment (not on the lists, etc)
[19:18] <bigbluehat> and not sure personal experience is ever unqualified
[19:20] <insanekane> mikekelly: there are lots of sites for that ... main one is jqueryvsmootools.com
[19:22] <mikekelly> yeah think I've read through that before
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[19:50] <prestonc> Anyone here use PHP as the REST server-side language? I'm trying to pull BASIC auth variables out of PHP_AUTH_USER, etc. and it's not there.
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[20:23] <bigbluehat> prestonc: what web server is PHP running behind?
[20:24] <prestonc> bigbluehat, Apache. Hold on, though, I'm going to try something on the client end first. The Android end.
[20:24] <bigbluehat> prestonc: cool
[20:24] <bigbluehat> prestonc: you might check this if that doesn't work: http://www.php.net/manual/en/features.http-auth.php#81769
[20:25] <prestonc> okay
[20:27] <bigbluehat> prestonc: did it work?
[20:34] <darrelmiller> Wow... I lose power for an hour and things kick off. You're such a trouble maker bigbluehat. ;-)
[20:35] <bigbluehat> darrelmiller: heh ;)
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[21:49] mamund enough for today. stay frosty, people!
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[00:00] --- Fri May 7 2010